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This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

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Old 12-11-2008, 10:39 AM   #65
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

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Originally Posted by BezO
What do you all think would be too complex for the average fan?

IMO, EA could make this the most realistic sports game ever & not alienate anyone. I feel realism & difficulty can be 2 completely unrelated areas.

I also think that even the most casual fan wants to see Madden play like the NFL. He may not want realistic results, but he wants the game to look, feel & play like the NFL. I've played Madden with people that I would consider very casual football & Madden fans. They get frustrated by the same things the most hardcore are frustrated by. We have all yelled the same things. "That's BS!" "That wouldn't happen!" "Why didn't he just...!" "He couldn't even see that!" "How'd he get over there so fast!" The most casual fan knows what NFL football looks like.
Exactly, it's pretty obvious to anyone who watches football what is wrong with Madden. And if EA is aiming it at people who don't watch football, then you don't need me to tell you that that is insanity.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:41 AM   #66
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

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Originally Posted by Vikes1
I suppose this is off topic, but since "Hardcore" vs "Causal" Madden gamers were kind of mentioned....I'm not really sure which category I fall into.

I really only have the time and interest in playing the football games. [mostly Madden and a little of NCAA.] Yes...I want the games to play as realistic as possible, but I'm not a big X and O's guy. To be honest, I really don't know the difference between Zone blocking and Trap blocking. Or the difference between 4-3 over or under.

Seems all I really care about in the end is...my 95 rated DE should dominate the cpu's 72 rated OT. Or my 90's rated across the board secondary shouldn't be helpless to stop an average cpu QB. Or I shouldn't be able to run FB dives every play all the way to going 16-0 on All-Madden.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...for me, I'm not too worried about having complex football schemes being 100% correct. What I do care about is, that what I see in the gameplay makes at least some sense to me. All I really want is an NFL game that provides a fair and interesting challenge. Were the ratings are truly meaningful, and the Franchise mode is deep and also makes sense. I guess I'd consider myself somewhere between "Hardcore" and "Casual". Seems to me that'd be a good place for the game to be as well.
That certainly seems like a fair and reasonable compromise. And let's face it; not too many people do know the difference between a Cover 2 and a 9 Velcro unless they played or coached.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:43 AM   #67
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
What do you all think would be too complex for the average fan?

IMO, EA could make this the most realistic sports game ever & not alienate anyone. I feel realism & difficulty can be 2 completely unrelated areas.

I also think that even the most casual fan wants to see Madden play like the NFL. He may not want realistic results, but he wants the game to look, feel & play like the NFL. I've played Madden with people that I would consider very casual football & Madden fans. They get frustrated by the same things the most hardcore are frustrated by. We have all yelled the same things. "That's BS!" "That wouldn't happen!" "Why didn't he just...!" "He couldn't even see that!" "How'd he get over there so fast!" The most casual fan knows what NFL football looks like.
Madden '08 was a perfect example of this. Watch Madden Nation or the Madden Challenge from that year for five minutes and you'll see about 20 one-handed catches. It was out of control and completely unrealistic.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:12 AM   #68
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

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Originally Posted by BezO
IMO, the problem is the Madden staff is just like you.
I know you weren't exactly referring to me when you made this comment, but I don't think that this is the sole problem with the Madden franchise to this point on the 360/PS3.

You see, I consider myself a huge football fan. I understand the strategies and what have you. But honestly, I'm not expecting for every immense detail to make it into a videogame. On the outside looking in, it would appear that a select few people want the game to play EXACTLY as it would in real life. For obvious reasons, that won't happen. Even stellar sports sims such as the NBA2K series have some holes in it that a hardcore basketball strategist could pick through.

Me, I'm not that complex. Even if great football games like APF 2K8 or NFL2K5 did not have versions of 'tiered play calling', I'd still be content with them. Why? Because at the end of the day, they're realistic. Realism is where Madden has been falling short as of late; it's not b/c the game isn't complex enough.

That's not to say I don't want Madden to be a strategic game. Lord knows I've been BEGGING for an on-the-fly Adaptive AI! But I just don't see Madden reaching the complex level of expectations that some have set forth.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:44 AM   #69
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

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Originally Posted by BezO
I don't remember which, but an EA rep once said that we couldn't expect all the programmers to be football experts. I can't imagine there are too many video game programmers that are also students of football, so that's understandable. But why isn't there a football guru standing over that programmers shoulder making sure his work makes football sense?
Better than any thing else I have thought or read on this subject, I think you summed it up perfectly and EA needs to read this. Ya know, I just always assumed every person that worked on Madden either played organized football or at least was a football fanatic. If some aren't one of those then that would explain a whole lot of the problems.

If I were a programmer and was trying to make a hockey or basketball game I am sure I fail miserably because not only have I not played those sports, but I don't even watch them on tv so I don't understand them at all.

I think a possible solution (or at least a big help) is that EA needs to basically, as you briefly mentioned, hire someone who either played NFL or at least college football to work with each programmer and basically sit with them every day. I read a while back that they do hire former football players as "advisors" to work with the game developers, I guess EA needs to hire a lot more of these former football players.

This is the Madden series and EA should start treating it as such. Madden development should have an unlimited budget. After all, the Madden series is a lot more than just a video game.

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Old 12-11-2008, 11:50 AM   #70
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

To respond to something a few pages back...

When CPU QB's are going 40 for 40 for 500 yards and 6 TD's like they're beating up on a MAC Conference defense, even casuals find a problem with that. It's so ridiculous that even less analytical people than us will notice something terribly amiss.

Team Madden put all their stock into this Madden IQ thing for 09 and foolishly disregarded the indispensible need for CPU Sliders, and it became a game killer for many people. These are mistakes and poor judgement errors that an experienced team should not be making.

They have to be wiser in how they go about implementing things. They have to come to the common realization that subtlety done well and correctly is impressive (2K5's legacy is largely built on the little things), and that extremes need to also have options for less extremes. Currently with them, it's extreme or nothing and it's but one of the reasons this franchise has fallen behind. There was a time where we wouldn't have made a big deal of it because the stable of reference was smaller. But times have changed, and in this generation we expect more, as we should.

Another thing they have to do is let football be football. No slowing dramatics on field goals, or crazy icons, or blue boxes popping up. Continuity of experience should be the chief goal. No compromises. Football should stay football. The more you try to add to what's already a "perfect" sport thinking you're going to somehow make it better, the more you take away from it because it's not authentic.

Back in the PS1 days (and even before) I remember them doing all they could to maintain the sim atmosphere to the best ability the tech of the time could handle (See Madden 98). Now it's like they want to make Madden into some kind of pseudo-pro football game that only glances at a sim-experience and also caters to bed-wetters. They've developed an identity crisis.

They need to get back to their roots and draw from the right mindset of the Madden Teams of the late 80's and 90's. Those guys back then really understood what the game was supposed to be, and they were quality-first minded as it wasn't uncommon for Madden's release to be delayed until the game worked properly or even canceled (08 should've been) like when they canceled Madden '96 for PS1. I know patches have changed the dynamics of that some, but it still goes to show how their committment to quality has changed and how it's negatively impacted our gaming experience.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:57 AM   #71
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiles36
You see, I consider myself a huge football fan. I understand the strategies and what have you. But honestly, I'm not expecting for every immense detail to make it into a videogame. On the outside looking in, it would appear that a select few people want the game to play EXACTLY as it would in real life. For obvious reasons, that won't happen. Even stellar sports sims such as the NBA2K series have some holes in it that a hardcore basketball strategist could pick through.
What would you consider "immense detail"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiles36
Me, I'm not that complex. Even if great football games like APF 2K8 or NFL2K5 did not have versions of 'tiered play calling', I'd still be content with them. Why? Because at the end of the day, they're realistic. Realism is where Madden has been falling short as of late; it's not b/c the game isn't complex enough.
For me, part of the realism was the tiered play calling. It allowed you to combined defensive strategies like an NFL coach would and not be confined to the front/stunt/blitz/coverage combinations EA implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiles36
That's not to say I don't want Madden to be a strategic game. Lord knows I've been BEGGING for an on-the-fly Adaptive AI! But I just don't see Madden reaching the complex level of expectations that some have set forth.
But I would still like to understand what type of complexity you thing some folks are looking for. What would be too complex for the average Madden fan?
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:59 AM   #72
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Re: This is why nothing will ever change with the Madden series

^^ Good post Watcher.

I had to comment though: Madden 08 was flat-out TERRIBLE! I completely agree with you when you say there was no commitment to quality with that edition of Madden. Seriously, how could they have released that game with the turnovers issues seen within the first few mins of playing? I'm not attacking Ian & co as they weren't in charge, but that game was a smack in the face to their loyal fanbase. Thankfully, Madden 09 got the franchise back headed in the right direction.

ok, rant over
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