What will NOT be in the game?

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

And I don't believe there's a defense that's sound against everything. Coordinators create concepts to stop plays they expect at a given time. My point is this... Indy, for example, plays Cover 2 80% of the time. But they do many, many things out of it. They blitz any combination of LBs, they use a variety of stunts, they zone blitz, ect. But in Madden's playbook, there are a very limited number of cover 2 concepts. If you're in a 4-3 normal front, for example, there are 2-3 Cover 2 concepts available. In real life, Indy combines many more stunt & blitz combinations out of their base defense that we don't have access to.

I want to say that I am in no means trying to talk down to you or to anyone, but your two statements are completely contradictory and just not true.

First of all, every defense is built around being able to cover all gaps, as well as providing adequate deep and underneath coverage, thus making it equipped to deal with anything. Maybe in high school, a defensive coordinator has a good idea of what's coming, but in professional football, a 20% tendency on a pass concept is a huge tendency, and that is only a 1 in 5 chance. Good defensive playcalling does involve trying to get schemes that match what the offense is doing and that overwhelm the blocking and protection. However, good defensive coaching is what occurs between tuesday and friday, getting players to pattern-read and react to and defend certain plays.

Secondly, the whole idea of the "tampa 2" is that it is solid against both the run and the pass, yes, there are stresses put on certain defenders (those are the defenders and areas of the field the offense should attack), but so do all defenses.

Thirdly, the Colts do not play "tampa 2" anywhere near 80% of the time, they are very rarely in that coverage on 1st down, and 1st down by itself is about 40% of a football game (not counting 4th).

Lastly, "tampa 2" (not really cover two at all, its a 3 deep/4 under variation) IS the concept. There's only 3 ways to run it in a 4 down lineman front (yes, you can change the pass rush/gap responsiblities for the dl, "stunts"), but once you bring a 5th or 6th rusher, its not cov 2 at all (it really wasn't in the first place). Teams don't give up large chunks of green that was vacated by a dogging defender, the whole under coverage philosophy is changed.

When you see indy bringing more than the front 4, its either some kind of man blitz (5 rushers=5 man defenders, 1 either robbing or playing deep middle or maybe bracketing a wr, 6 rushers=5 man defenders "cov 0", or its some kind of fire zone: most are 3 under/3 deep schemes, a FEW are 4 under/2 deep schemes (these are rare because they force defenders to cover a large amount of area in the under coverage)

Base defenses, as you call them (i'm assumming you mean regular personnel), only include maybe 15 or so front/coverage combinations each game. The Colts (your example team) play fewer than that.

I am sorry you disagree and I hope maybe you'll change your opinions. Stay vocal, as that is the only way any of us can hope to get the game we want.

[rhombic21]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I'm quite capable and so are many others. And I don't believe there's a defense that's sound against everything. Coordinators create concepts to stop plays they expect at a given time. I agree you can accomplish some of this with audibles. A few things though... your opponent has to give you time to get the audibles in and I don't want my call dependent on whether my opponent gives me time to piece it together. There are many things that can't be done with the audibles... stunts for example. And defenses are not called this way at any level of football. My little league team called fronts & coverage separately. Lastly, the same folks you claim don't know how to create defensive concepts are doing just that with the audibles. That's what folks use them for. I've played people that are audibling before the teams even get to the line. I did this myself. Most of the time these adjustments aren't adjustments at all. They're preconceived ideas that couldn't be called in the huddle because of the play calling method & limited combinations.

I agree with this. Although it's not the point of this thread, I think you could probably accomplish what you and I are wanting, without making the playcalling too difficult for the novice user by simply allowing people to create their own plays and playbooks, and to then use those playbooks online, in exhibition mode, or in franchise mode. Even something rudimentary like the Head Coach play creator/editor would could probably be modified pretty easily to give us the sort of control that we want.

I know that a play editor/creator is basically a hardcore oriented feature, but it would also be good in that it would allow the hardcore community to pick up where the developers can't spend as much time, in terms things like play design. So that way maybe both camps get something that they want. Casual fans get some accessibility, and hardcore fans get the ability to make the playbooks deeper.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

I want to say that I am in no means trying to talk down to you or to anyone, but your two statements are completely contradictory and just not true.

Feel free to speak your peace. I've played & coached enough to not feel a way about it.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

First of all, every defense is built around being able to cover all gaps, as well as providing adequate deep and underneath coverage, thus making it equipped to deal with anything. Maybe in high school, a defensive coordinator has a good idea of what's coming, but in professional football, a 20% tendency on a pass concept is a huge tendency, and that is only a 1 in 5 chance. Good defensive playcalling does involve trying to get schemes that match what the offense is doing and that overwhelm the blocking and protection. However, good defensive coaching is what occurs between tuesday and friday, getting players to pattern-read and react to and defend certain plays.

All gaps? Yes. Everything? No. But I don't think we disagree. What you say an offense should attack(below), I say the defense is not sound in that area. A Cover 2(not Tampy 2) gives up the deep middle & intermediate sidelines for example. I think it's a matter of semantics how we would describe those weaknesses. In fact, lets just call them weaknesses as you seem to agree every defense has them.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Secondly, the whole idea of the "tampa 2" is that it is solid against both the run and the pass, yes, there are stresses put on certain defenders (those are the defenders and areas of the field the offense should attack), but so do all defenses.

I agree, it's used because it's solid against the run & pass. But like you said, every defense has its weaknesses.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Thirdly, the Colts do not play "tampa 2" anywhere near 80% of the time, they are very rarely in that coverage on 1st down, and 1st down by itself is about 40% of a football game (not counting 4th).

Pardon, I was trying to remember a % I got from an article. Not sure if this is it, but either way, it only says they play zone 80% of the time, not the Tamp 2 specifically.

I won't argue the % as I don't watch enough Colts games to do so, but I'd be surprised if they were only in the Tampa 2 40% of the time. Either way, I don't think this effects my argument.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Lastly, "tampa 2" (not really cover two at all, its a 3 deep/4 under variation) IS the concept. There's only 3 ways to run it in a 4 down lineman front (yes, you can change the pass rush/gap responsiblities for the dl, "stunts"), but once you bring a 5th or 6th rusher, its not cov 2 at all (it really wasn't in the first place). Teams don't give up large chunks of green that was vacated by a dogging defender, the whole under coverage philosophy is changed.

Yes, the Tampa 2 is more of a cover 3 with the safeties & MLB deep. But again, I think we're getting into semantics. What you're calling concept, I'd call philosophy. When I say concept, I'm talking about what a coach is trying to accomplish on a particular play - stunts, blitzes, coverage, ect.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Base defenses, as you call them (i'm assumming you mean regular personnel), only include maybe 15 or so front/coverage combinations each game. The Colts (your example team) play fewer than that.

My base = base personnel & front. For example, Philly is a 4-3 team, Dal a 3-4 team...

And I'm not sure we're understanding each other. I don't think you mean that Indy has only played 15 combinations of defense from their 4-3 set. They can use 6 different stunt combinations. I won't try to count the number of possible zone blitz combinations, but I think that takes us past 15. Either way, even if it's only 15 different combinations they can use in front of their Tampa 2, Madden doesn't provide nearly that amount.

But you know what? Indy was not the best example I could've used to prove my point. Like you said, you can't blitz & keep 7 in a zone.

Let's change the team to see if it helps us get on the same page. Philly. How many different combinations of stunts, blitzes & coverage you think Philly used out of their base 4-3? 3 LBs can blitz in any combination. That's what, 7? Times that by, what, 6 basic stunt combinations? Times that by the coverages they can use behind each of those combinations. Times that by an occasional DB blitz. Waaaaaay past 15 or even the number of defenses Madden provides.

Maybe you or someone esle can check something for me, or maybe someone knows off hand. Go into Philly's defensive playbook and see how many Man Free defenses there are in their 4-3 set. 2, 3, maybe 4? That's the specific problem I have. 4 can't even account for all the possible LB blitz combinations.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

I am sorry you disagree and I hope maybe you'll change your opinions. Stay vocal, as that is the only way any of us can hope to get the game we want.

I don't think we disagree all that much.

[Cryolemon]

From a 3-4 cover 2 with no DB or Zone blitzes there are 12 LB blitz possibilities, if you include the situation where no LBs blitz.

[netking23]

A little off topic here.
i'm enjoying this discussion about defense as i'm relatively new to the game of football. one thing that has always struck me in the game and i wonder if its the case in real life, is that it seems its much easier to run against a zone defense than against man (at least when i'm on defense). can anybody say whether this is true or this is just something that happens in madden?

[shttymcgee]

Just because fronts and coverages are called differently doesn't mean that they are not coordinated. The front structure is determined by what happens in the secondary in GOOD football. I will use one zone blitz to show why tiered defensive playcalling is not a good idea:

.....................................r............ ................................
.....................................f............ ................................
.................................................. ................................
......................................q........... .......................o
.........o.....................o..o..o..o..o..o... ............................
...............................E..T....N.....E...S ..........................
..........C...................W...........M....... ....................C
.................................................. ...............................
.........................F........................ ........$....................

LE: seam flat, T: outside rush, N: cross inside rush, E: big scoop inside and inside rush, S: outside rush, W: middle (hole), M: blitz, C's: outside thirds, F: deep middle third, $: seam flat

If you were setting up this defense in a tiered system you would have to slant the line left while dropping the LE, send the SLB and MLB and make sure the W is in the middle, then set your coverage in a strong sky rotation. Then what happens when the offense is in twins? You have to adjust your secondary spin or you'll have your DE trying to run with a slot receiver. Then you have to adjust your will to the opposite seam are and the DE into the hole. What happens if a back motions out of the backfield. What happens if it is a 2 TE/1 back set?

There are just too many variables involved.

Just because there are an extremely large number of possiblities (still trying to figure out how you get 12 different potential blitzers in the 20 defense when there's only 4 lb's and you can only rush 4 total and play cover 2, In my 4-3 example I was even including an over and under defense) doesn't mean teams go in with that many schemes. There's just too many checks that could be made.

NFL teams do go into Sunday's with about 15 regular grouping defenses. I am sure you can somehow find an authentic NFL defensive gameplan on the internet somewhere. Yes, teams run more than 15 "base" defenses the whole year, but they literally limit it to that amount on gamedays. They have more sub defenses (nickel, dime, etc) because those players can play better in space, but teams do not go into games with 100 plus defenses.

I'm all for bigger playbooks, especially offense, but there also needs to be a way to quickly select what one you want.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by netking23

A little off topic here. i'm enjoying this discussion about defense as i'm relatively new to the game of football. one thing that has always struck me in the game and i wonder if its the case in real life, is that it seems its much easier to run against a zone defense than against man (at least when i'm on defense). can anybody say whether this is true or this is just something that happens in madden?

It happens in the game because the idiot LB's start to drop to their zones on the snap. In reality, the best run-stopping defensive scheme is quarters coverage, because it allows you to get 9 in the box after the snap, but Madden doesn't have true quarters, instead its cov 4 automatically drops the safeties deep when in reality those safeties are reading the number two receiver (te) and if he blocks, he's flying up now. The Colts (and most zone-cover teams) actually are in this more than they are in 2.

[NYyankz225]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

It happens in the game because the idiot LB's start to drop to their zones on the snap. In reality, the best run-stopping defensive scheme is quarters coverage, because it allows you to get 9 in the box after the snap, but Madden doesn't have true quarters, instead its cov 4 automatically drops the safeties deep when in reality those safeties are reading the number two receiver (te) and if he blocks, he's flying up now. The Colts (and most zone-cover teams) actually are in this more than they are in 2.

That always bothered me. If you're in quarters and they run you're completely screwed in Madden. So frustrating.