Speed is King: It's not rebalance ratings that'll fix it

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

I agree with the OP. There are a couple of important things here.

I'm hurt that a fellow MM vet would refer to me simply as "the OP".

However, the rest of your post gave me an idea. We've had conversations on here regarding the awareness attribute for Quarterbacks... imagine this scenario...

A WR with a low route running ability... there could be a couple effects of that. First off, he could be more likely to run a flat WRONG route, and he is going to be less likely to stay on the "correct" path for the route itself. Thus, for a timing based pass in which the QB isn't going to have much of a chance to look at him (such as a quick slant or square out pattern), he wont be in the right place.

Now, the interaction with the QB should be like this: By default, on those timing routes, the QB should be throwing to the spot the receiver SHOULD be in. The QBs awareness should dictate how quickly the QB adjusts to an out of place receiver.

For example, a low route running WR runs an out route 3 yards too deep... a low AWR QB is going to throw that ball, based on his accuracy, pretty much exactly where the receiver was SUPPOSED to be... meaning it'll probably land at the receivers feet. A high AWR QB, on the other hand, will be able to quickly make the adjustment and hit the receiver in stride.

In other words, an aware quarterback can make up for a poor route running WR, but a poor route running WR with a unaware QB is a terrible combination.

[kmart2180]

What I dont want to happen is a low rated Wr with 99 speed be able to dominate a highly rated db who speed is only a 90. Im thinking a Devin Hester vs Charles Woodson matchup. I want Woodson to win that matchup 8/10 times.

First off if Woodson is bumping Hester he should almost be out of the play before it even happens.

Secondly if he takes any kinda hit the chances of him catching it should not be good.

But if the Packers Blitz and leave Woodson on a 1 on 1 without safety help, once in a while Hester should be able to win that matchup.

[rhombic21]

Yeah, adembroski, I think that's a good idea, but it gets kind of complicated when you start adding in variables from multiple players. I mean, it's easy to figure out what should happen at both poles of the ratings spectrum, but then what about players with say, 85 AWR? How do you convert that into some sort of on-field effect where an 85 AWR as substantively worse than a 99 AWR. To me, that's what is at the heart of this ratings revolution. A guy that is an 85 should play like an 85. He's well above average, but he's not elite. The problem with what you just talked about is that what I anticipate would happen is that it would really only be a major factor for players with very low AWR ratings, but that for players above some fairly reasonable threshold (which would probably include the vast majority of starters on the game), the effects would become so minimal as to barely impact gameplay.

At this point, I would be happy if there was just some way to make high speed players with low "technique" (and by technique, I'm referring to position specific situational abilities) less effective, and below average speed, but high "technique" players more effective. I think that would be the best starting place to go with.

QB AWR is an entirely separate issue that is way complex, and I'm not even sure how to handle it within the framework of Madden as we know it. In real life, QB AWR affects all kinds of things, like ability to make audibles, to read the defense/progress through the routes, and feel pressure that most people would be frustrated if the game took away. I mean, short of making the computer control the QB, so that the user can't over-ride low QB AWR, there's really no good way to convert most of those things into the game, because most of us (even among the hardcore) would be too frustrated to lose that degree of control over the action.

In my mind, the way that I almost just treat it is to think of user skill as synonymous with QB AWR. And so I just kind of accept the fact that really good players are going to be able to make physically gifted QBs play unrealistically well on the game.

[Inspiration]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

A WR with a low route running ability... there could be a couple effects of that. First off, he could be more likely to run a flat WRONG route, and he is going to be less likely to stay on the "correct" path for the route itself. Thus, for a timing based pass in which the QB isn't going to have much of a chance to look at him (such as a quick slant or square out pattern), he wont be in the right place. Now, the interaction with the QB should be like this: By default, on those timing routes, the QB should be throwing to the spot the receiver SHOULD be in. The QBs awareness should dictate how quickly the QB adjusts to an out of place receiver. For example, a low route running WR runs an out route 3 yards too deep... a low AWR QB is going to throw that ball, based on his accuracy, pretty much exactly where the receiver was SUPPOSED to be... meaning it'll probably land at the receivers feet. A high AWR QB, on the other hand, will be able to quickly make the adjustment and hit the receiver in stride.

My two cents:

You seem to be focused on the fact that the main downside to a receiver being a poor route-runner is that they run wrong routes and are frequently in the wrong place at the wrong time. While there are certainly wrong routes run during NFL games, I always thought the main advantage gained by being an elite route runner was separation from defenders. A receiver who curves off his route or doesn't properly sell the route can't get separation because the defender can simply run with him across the field. A good route runner makes sharp changes in directions and doesn't tip off his route, forcing the defender to hesitate in order to properly determine which direction the receiver going. While a high route-running ability might determine the occurrance of an occasional wrong-route, to me, route-running is much more important in its ability to allow a receiver who isn't necessarily more athletic than the defender to still get separation.

I'm not saying that you are wrong (in fact, it's a good idea) but in the NFL, incorrect routes run by a receiver aren't extremely common (that's not say they don't happen though). Unless they get redirected by a defender, receivers are more often than not in the right place on the field. As I mentioned, I do like the idea, but I would hope that something as significant as QB awareness might have a larger effect than just this on the game.

[steelcurtain311]

Quote:

At this point, I would be happy if there was just some way to make high speed players with low "technique" (and by technique, I'm referring to position specific situational abilities) less effective, and below average speed, but high "technique" players more effective. I think that would be the best starting place to go with.

I agree completely. This has been a problem with Madden for some time. It makes a guy like Hines Ward useless against any CB who has speed higher than a 90 (since I believe Hines' is like 88-89), regardless of what their overall rating is, he can never beat them on deep routes. Or the flipside, being that you could have mediocre WR's with like an 80 rating, burn a great CB, simply because the CB's speed rating is significantly less.

Speed most definitely matters, but it's not nearly that much of a difference as in Madden. You could have a garbage player with a 70 something rating, but as long as he has speed he can be elite when it comes to WR/CB positions. If speed was all it took, a guy like Devin Hester would be a top WR in the game, when he's not even in the top 50.

The Madden team seems to have the right idea for this season, and that's reboot most of the game, implement all new gameplay features. I think it's safe to say that everyone is considerably sick of the Madden series right now. They've been lazy, plain and simple.

Has the game improved? Sure, SLIGHTLY. Since the series came to PS2 though, has it really come that far? No. We're into next-gen gaming now, and you're still getting basically the same build of the same game you've been playing since the PS2/Xbox days, only with better graphics and some slight gameplay/animation tweaks. That's pretty unacceptable, and the only reason they get away with it is because they're the only football game in town. Other developers would KILL with the opportunity of having the NFL license all to themselves, yet the Madden series just kind of lazily put out a weak product for a number of years now, since people will buy it regardless. You can't even say they haven't been lazy, since the game still suffers from the same problems it had since 2001-2002. How is it that WR's/QB's still have no idea that the sidelines exist? How could that still be happening over 5 years and the next generation of gaming later? Or that offensive linemen don't even attempt to block defenders at times? Or that you can dominate the game with a garbage QB, as long as his speed rating is an 85 or higher?

Look what Sony did with the Show, why can't the Madden team do something like that? Every year I say "This will be the year they finally turn it around", yet every year you get that same Madden game, updated roster, slight gameplay tweaks that don't even really matter to you a month after playing the game, it's just getting old. I want to like Madden and have fun playing the game, but it's just become so hard to at this point. I feel like I'm wasting my money every year, but I love football, I still have love for the Madden franchise, so I have to get my fix of football gaming. Madden is the only option, yet instead of taking advantage of that fact, they've dropped the ball.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by kmart2180

What I dont want to happen is a low rated Wr with 99 speed be able to dominate a highly rated db who speed is only a 90. Im thinking a Devin Hester vs Charles Woodson matchup. I want Woodson to win that matchup 8/10 times. First off if Woodson is bumping Hester he should almost be out of the play before it even happens. Secondly if he takes any kinda hit the chances of him catching it should not be good. But if the Packers Blitz and leave Woodson on a 1 on 1 without safety help, once in a while Hester should be able to win that matchup.

See this is where I think they need to follow 2k when 2k had the numbers ratings. In your example, let's say I'm playing 2k4. Patrick Surtan on that game had a 91 speed I believe. But his coverage rating was 97 or so. No WR could beat him even though they may have had a higher speed rating. His coverage rating negated their speed. But now, if someone by chance caught it and got in front of him, their speed won out. But his coverage rating made it damn near impossible for alot of guys to catch the ball or get any separation. If you had a RB that had a higher speed rating and you got pass him then the speed of the RB would win out because Surtan was slower and his pursuit was not great. EA needs a more complex formula. I've said it in a thread way back when I talked about having a pass rush rating and some other ratings.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL

Its weird I felt like I was the only one that didnt agree with the new idea of adding more range to the ratings. I dont see how that can translate to having a sim experience.

If I understand things, most people often complained that ratings didn't mean anything. That's why spreading out the ratings is significant. Hopefully, we'll get the effect that some players aren't as good as some others.

Quote:

The Funny thing is that Football is nothing but Speed. The game of football today is so much faster than ever, but the programmers feel that slowing it down will make it more sim. I mentioned that speed wasnt the problem, and what can be done to correct it.

Without a doubt, the game of football is fast. But in my opinion, Madden 08 played at an UNREALISTIC fast speed. It was as if the game was on crack. I believe 09 slowed down just a bit, but still. I have no problem with the game moving at a fast pace as it is in real life; but I think the game speed in recent Maddens has felt JUICED. It's hard for plays to even develop sometimes b/c the game moves so fast.

[Exonerated]

the game could be slower imo. PLayers are dam friggin fast. But they're not all mike vicks.

Agreed on man coverage negating speed, but speed winning in the open field.

Right now 70 ovr 99 speed , beats 99 mcv 94 speed.

The only time that 70 ovr wr beats the db , is by chance, or in the open field.


SPEED KILLS, BUT SO DOES DROPPING THE BALL