Outside the football field

[KANE699]

Im with you man you don't see these details or the super metallic paint in the helmets unless you are RIGHT up on the players in replay mode, I would much rather have a dynamic stadium and sideline than that extreme detail that I am only going to see super zoomed in on in replay mode.

Now that being said, when you start taking away details I can see during the actual gameplay then I'd rather keep what we have than interactive sidelines.

But from the likes of it we could take out the metallic sheen on the helmets each individual jersey hole, the ability to read the warning sticker on the helmets and I wouldn't mind because I would never see any of that unless in replay, as long as these changes aren't detrimental to the actual gameplay looks I am all for it.

I also know adding all the proper facemasks and visor clips and heck maybe even hand warmers(as long as they don't flap in the wind) will not take away the ability to have an interactive sideline. Since these are all things already in the game (sans handwarmers) and would still like to see these implemented into this years game.

[Outkizast]

In my opinion it is WAY more important to have the interactive sidelines and more realistic animations of the players off the field.. If you get the "feeling" that it is a REAL NFL game, your mind will automatically put in the details and stuff on the jerseys and stuff in your mind... if everything looks fake... then they jerseys, even though they have holes, wont make a difference.. the games looks FAKE... In my opinion it is important to have players wear the proper equipment that they do in real life and stuff... but the player models honestly dont need to be as DETAILED... if we can look at the TV screen from across the room and have it look like a REAL nfl game during gameplay.. that is all i want... when there aren't realistic sidelines and things of that nature... (crowds too)... then it ruins the "immersion" that the game gives to make you feel like it is a real NFL game....

ALSO: If you are in awe at the cool animations on the sidelines and players giving high fives.. drinking gatorade... helping players up that fall out of bounds during a play.... you are totally focused on how realistic everything looks... you WONT notice how detailed the jerseys and helmets are...

[raphael]

Quote: Originally Posted by canes21

Lets see.... What did 2k5 have? Great detail everywhere not just on field. It was a great success. I wouldn't mind having graphics similiar to 2k5 with a little next gen beef up.

agreed, i was thinking the same thing to myself. 2k5 looked great at the time and it also had well animated crowds and sideline players, so i would think that you can achieve better results on the 360 without reducing the detail on players too much.

[ch46647]

Have to agree with everyone else and say I was really hoping for interactive sidelines this year. Hopefully you atleast get the refs and chaingangs in this year.

[dirtylandry30]

Ian,

Are you basically saying that you cannot have both in the game? Why can't we have the best of both worlds...I want to get the same feeling with Madden as I do when I play NBA 2k9...Oh yeah so are you saying that we will not have refs, chaingangs, and interactive sidelines in Madden 10. I hope that this is not the case.

[johnprestonevans]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

So what do you guys think? As we move to the future, what is more important to you? Would you rather have the extra details (like the holes in the jerseys), or much less details on the players and the environment and more extra characters (that animate in a smarter manner) around the playing field? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I would like more put into the atmosphere of the entire stadium (sidelines, dynamic crowds, refs, chain gang, replays, weather, time of day, tickers, out of town updates, etc.) rather than you guys go hyper-sensitive on the current player models. As they stand right now they look GREAT. I think you guys did an incredible job last year with the players and stadiums graphically. Your work on animation issues and gameplay look to be huge improvements for 10. But please do the stuff that NBA 2K9 and MLB 09 The Show have done - make the game look and feel like a real TV broadcast (I hope you read the Camera thread because that is vital too). To back up what someone else posted, I want to have to look twice to make sure its not a real NFL broadcast. To me that doesnt mean designing the spikes on the bottom of players shoes - its about creating a living breathing environment and using broadcast-authentic cameras, stats and all that polish to mimic what we see on TV every Sunday.

To use NFL2K5 as an example (sorry) they have very poor graphics by today's standards, but their atmosphere, sidelines, cameras, highlights and all those authentic elements STILL give that game an immersive quality. Just proof that its not all about jersey holes and progressive facial hair growth. The philosophy of the "Dead Rising" example you posted exhibits the things that will immerse us the most. Thanks.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Oh how I wish this wasn't the case! I feel so defeated when it comes to interactive sidelines. Glorious Arc you are correct, there are a lot of 'clones' throughout the crowd and sidelines. They do actually animate during the play, but sometimes the camera guys and other random 'non players' animation data isn't saved into the replay (this is because of memory constraints...RAM, not HD). As I think everyone is well aware, EVERY company that moved to 360 / PS3 went nuts on graphics. Well when the planning was done for graphical level of detail here at Tiburon, it was done to get the a.) absolute maximum amount of detail on 22 players on the field and b) insanely high-res stadiums. Extra characters really weren't considered because the player detail was so important, which is why it's been so hard getting new stuff in. That's why you haven't seen coaches in realtime on the sideline, or refs or chain gang either. All the initial planning and asset creation for the transition was done for 22 guys (at 30fps btw)...so it's been extremely difficult to make big global reductions as well as maintain 60 fps. Also, now that people are used to the visual fidelity of the game, we would take a lot of heat if the game started looking much worse graphically. I only wish that we had accounted for like 50 full-res guys. APF2k8 decided to reduce the overall quality on their players, stadiums, environments, etc a little bit in order to have 22 EXTRA full-res players on the sidelines (instead of basic low-res clones). That's how they got the really killer interactions where the players catch you or you roll them over or whatever. I loved those...and no, those won't be in Madden NFL 10. Personally (and I am not expressing the opinion of anyone else or of my employers), I'm of the mindset that MORE fully interactive characters = more immersion and "wow moments" to the user than having insane detail with fewer characters. Case in point - Dead Rising: I really could care less what the graphics look like when I truly feel 100% immersed in that world (and in the story) because there are always 800 zombies around. I think NBA 2k has done an amazing job here as well - the guys get up for subs, the dude comes out and mops, and it's all realtime (they do have the luxury of a relatively tiny environment and only 10 players in the action at once though too). So what do you guys think? As we move to the future, what is more important to you? Would you rather have the extra details (like the holes in the jerseys), or much less details on the players and the environment and more extra characters (that animate in a smarter manner) around the playing field? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Hey Ian, I believe you may have read a couple of my posts about the sideline characters (I actually dedicated a piece to this in the wishlist thread, too.. #12), but I think it makes a good point here.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2038891296

While I agree that more fullness creates more immersion in theory, the problem with where Madden has been going with this is that there has been an increase in things that people aren't even paying attention to (because it doesn't stand out) and as a result the entire picture has suffered... and that's actually hurt immersion.

I talked about the cut of about 50 characters in that Wishlist posting. Because there are so many characters already, I'd bet every dime I have that if you cut the 50 I mentioned and used those resources elsewhere, not a single person would notice they were cut, or even care for that matter.

With APF, like you pointed out, they had AI sidelines and it was great except everything else had to suffer in order to get it. The only thing they did nail down in terms of graphics were the player model details. You definitely have to check them out up close. The jersey detail is ridiculous. Dare I say, it surpasses Madden 07.

At the end of the day, the most detail should go to the most important things... the things we're going to see in greatest detail 99% of the time. That's the players and the field. Sideline interactions can be cutscened. I mean, why not? It's not as if in APF you could control anybody once the play was over, so I see no reason why there couldn't be a cutscene that sometimes triggers after a guy runs out of bounds, and then the scene starts where he's seen jawing with an opposing player on the sideline or quickly taunting the other team with a gesture. Or running out after a big play to his own team's sideline and quickly being congratulated by teammates on the sideline with pats on the helmet and such as he walks back to the field for the next play.

You could even have one where an opposing player helps another player up who's fallen out of bounds. There is definite potential with cutscenes like these because in Madden 09, there were lots of times where players ran way out of bounds and instead of doing something the camera started zooming away (please tell me that was 86'ed, lol).

All I'm saying is, there are some other routes to achieving the same immersion result without having to take away from the most important parts: detail of the players and the field. Cutscenes that are organic because they trigger at the right time, that's the key. MLB The Show is redefining sports gaming presentation just on that principle alone, not even mentioning all the other stuff.

[TheWatcher]

One other thing I want to say on this... I think it's important to keep in mind that while we're all hardcore players of Madden here at OS, who care about X's and O's and ultra-realism, the average fan doesn't even think about these things. They do buy these games often times based on how cool it looks. If you start taking away from graphics you're going to pay the price at the checkout counter.

It's going to be less painful if you use other avenues to achieve the immersion results you're targeting rather than taking away from the overall picture.