Home

NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

This is a discussion on NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness within the Madden NFL Last Gen forums.

Go Back   Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football > Madden NFL Last Gen
eFootball 2022 Review
FIFA 22 Review
Hot Wheels: Unleashed Review
Poll: What's more important to you, when the time comes to purchase a game? (Click to vote)
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-04-2009, 01:43 PM   #33
Hall Of Fame
 
OVR: 40
Join Date: Jul 2002
Blog Entries: 8
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

Your first question is a very good question. I'll return to that in a sec. Your second question operates off an assumption that if you cannot look off Safeties then you do not have "realistic QB" play. And this is what I want to deal with here before turning back to the first.

My position stated above really is concerned with one thing, namely, how much realism can you capture in a video game at this particular position, before you have to start tearing down realistic elements elsewhere, just so you can get that to be functional. In a video game how important is it going to be to look off a safety, if the rating is going to determine what the safety does? If Ed Reed is a 98 overall and he operates according to his ratings, in a video game it doesn't matter whether you look him off or not. From another perspective, namely head to head, it doesn't matter if you look the guy off especially if someone is controlling that guy. Third, as the human player, you've already looked guys off. I'm not willing to possibly sacrifice realism in another area, just to add something to QB play that might not make that big of a difference in a video game.

With a pocket and better DE play, and new QB ratings, all of which were things that were not present in Madden 06 with the cone and things that were not even pursued to deal with the QB issues in the Madden series, I think we should test the new things first before asking for double tapping and the cone back. Again, if the defense plays like it should then I see big problems with these things. Secondly, I think with video games you capture as much realism as you can and then measure how it can all be incorporated to keep everything balanced.

Let's see what we got this year first and measure it on and offline and think about where we want elements of the gameplay to go. I'm not opposed to the idea, I think it's more of us wanting the defensive play to go somewhere, where something like that may not be feasible for where we want or need the defensive play to go. Unfortunately for video games to me there are necessary trade offs. In the past the trade off for the cone to work was random gap blitzing on defense. I'm not willing to have that type of trade off.
LBzrule is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 02:11 PM   #34
Banned
 
OVR: 19
Join Date: Jan 2008
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKE4742
That football looks huge!
Not at all man. They seemed to reduce the size from last year.
Adam Dayton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 02:42 PM   #35
MVP
 
OVR: 18
Join Date: Feb 2004
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA
The refs don't run a full IK solution (it was way too expensive on the CPU to add 7 more characters running IK) so that means they can't do procedural awareness. They do track their targets though (i.e. the line play for the head ref, the ballcarrier for the line judge, etc) with a simpler system and it looks pretty solid. IMO it's not as good as PA, but they definitely don't look like robots...they follow the ball and their correct assignments.
Ian - at first I was bummed when you made this post about the refs not having PA, but shouldn't it be this way anyways? They all have their specific assignments and shouldn't be tracking the ball as it is - maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed that they never really watched the ball. So, good job .
green94 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 04-04-2009, 02:48 PM   #36
49ers
 
adembroski's Arena
 
OVR: 43
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 5,631
Blog Entries: 20
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

Just building on LBzrule's point... I think we're overestimating the "looking off" aspect of football.

First off, not every defensive back even has the talent to maintain his assignment and pay attention to where the QB is looking, so in a lot of cases, being able to pull a low awareness guy out of position with a glance is highly unrealistic. Second, most QBs don't "look off" because the reading scheme doesn't allow them too, or they don't know the scheme well enough to look away from their reads. They have very specific places they need to be looking, and they need to focus on those reads. Third, it is only the truly gifted quarterbacks that can use this tactic with any regularity because it is only the truly gifted quarterbacks that can actually throw to a guy they don't see.

In other words, the effect and frequency of looking off is highly exaggerated by NFL commentators.
__________________
There are two types of people on OS: Those who disagree with me, and those who agree.

The first kind is wrong. The second is superfluous.

The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.
-Mark Twain.
adembroski is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 03:06 PM   #37
MVP
 
PGaither84's Arena
 
OVR: 49
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lima, Peru
Blog Entries: 15
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

I agree with LBzrule and Adambroksi here. Also, I think that some of you may be overlooking how elegent the PA feature is. My interpritation of what will happen is that the QB will make assigned "reads" as he progresses through a play and when you, as a human player, make the choise of where to throw, the computer will go through all of it's math trying to determine where to throw the ball, what ratings to use and what not while on screen you will see the QB's body/head turn to where the ball will be thrown and just make them animation smoothly. The problem of QB super-spin and toss should be nuttered becasue a few changes to M10.

First, the sped-up animations like seen in the FB dive that were used as band-aids have been removed. this should mean that the super-spin is gone and your QB will have turn around in a realistic fashion and at a realtisic rate.

Secondly, Ian has said the game speed was tunned down by about 5% this year. This should also slow down the super-spin and superfast reaction times from your controller to the player animation. However I do not feel things will be slow slow and too slow to react that the game will feel sluggish. I think that things will now be at a more beliveable rate. I think that M10 should be faster than 2k5, but not by too much. 09 is just WAY to fast and Ian has acknowleged that much. I feel that game play footage will show I am right about these assumptions.

With all of these solutions in place along with what LBzrule and Adambroski wrote, M10 will be a very good game and lay sound gound work for fine tuning for M11. No game will ever be perfect, but 09 is horrid and M10 looks like it will be one of the better NFL games ever made. Quite a jump I'd say.
__________________
My Madden Blog
PGaither84 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 03:39 PM   #38
Proctor, MN. Go Rails!
 
Vikes1's Arena
 
OVR: 23
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,115
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski

In other words, the effect and frequency of looking off is highly exaggerated by NFL commentators.
I'm certainly no NFL analyst, but I'd beg to respectfully disagree with you Adem.

It's my assumption that especially having the ability to "look off" the safeties, is nearly paramount to NFL QB play. Without this ability, the QB's going to be throwing INT's by the boatload, and putting his receivers in terrible jeopardy.

I of course agree with you some QB's are far better than others at doing this. But it's just my belief that those who aren't good at this...won't be in the league very long.
Vikes1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 03:53 PM   #39
49ers
 
adembroski's Arena
 
OVR: 43
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 5,631
Blog Entries: 20
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikes1
I'm certainly no NFL analyst, but I'd beg to respectfully disagree with you Adem.

It's my assumption that especially having the ability to "look off" the safeties, is nearly paramount to NFL QB play. Without this ability, the QB's going to be throwing INT's by the boatload, and putting his receivers in terrible jeopardy.

I of course agree with you some QB's are far better than others at doing this. But it's just my belief that those who aren't good at this...won't be in the league very long.
You are right in a certain context... this isn't it.

You are talking about quarterbacks who stare down their primary receiver from snap to throw and never look elsewhere. No, successful QBs do not do this. I'm talking about purposefully looking to another receiver with the intent of convincing a defense that the ball's going that way, only to turn off and hit a different receiver with little to no warning. This is what the vision cone simulates, and this is what I'm talking about.

Every quarterback worthy of being in the NFL understands that you cannot stare at a receiver you intend to throw too. These quarterbacks cycle through receivers (in a passing-lane scheme, such as Dennis Green's offense) or their reads (in a defensive key scheme, such as Mike Holmgren's offense) before looking to the intended receiver.

However, someone like a Montana, Brady, Manning, Young, Marino, can make their reads very quickly and can purposefully look to a secondary receiver and watch him, hopefully drawing the defense to that spot, then, almost without a glance, can turn to their primary and make an on target throw.

These throws are just this side of blind, and if Kyle Orton or Tarvaris Jackson tried it, would produce more interceptions than completions.

To produce the effect that the vision cone does, a QB must have two things: an outstanding ability to read defenses extremely quickly and a knowledge of his own offense not even his head coach can match. Even the very best cannot do this on every play (well, except maybe Montana).

Madden without the vision cone produces a similar effect to 9 out of 10 plays: The defense does not look for and does not react to the QB staring, and the QB simply cycles through reads before he makes a decision and makes no attempt to "draw" the defense anywhere. He doesn't stare down any one receiver either. (It's especially apparent when you consider that someone like Ed Reed knows damn well not to believe Payton Manning's eyes).

Everything I've said here is a bit of a simplication of the whole thing. There are so many factors that go into it... someone like Manning or Brady can, indeed, stare down a receiver at times because just because you know who the ball's going to doesn't mean you know when or where it's going to go to him, and there is no defense for a perfectly timed and placed pass... that's why the front seven is more important to pass defense than the secondary. The secondary can do everything perfect, but if the QB makes a perfect throw, the offense wins.
__________________
There are two types of people on OS: Those who disagree with me, and those who agree.

The first kind is wrong. The second is superfluous.

The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.
-Mark Twain.

Last edited by adembroski; 04-04-2009 at 04:42 PM.
adembroski is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 04:13 PM   #40
Proctor, MN. Go Rails!
 
Vikes1's Arena
 
OVR: 23
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,115
Re: NCAA pic shows the procedural awareness

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
You are right in a certain context... this isn't it.
I misunderstood your first post Adem.

I took it that you were talking in general terms.
Vikes1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

« Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football > Madden NFL Last Gen »


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:21 AM.

Top -