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IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive AI?

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Old 04-06-2009, 02:37 AM   #73
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

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Originally Posted by PGaither84
We all know the computer cheats on All-Madden mode. It is no secret. The computer is doing it's best to compensate for the obvious mismatch of a living thinking human brain.
If you think there's a mismatch, go read the responses on insideblog:P
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:54 AM   #74
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

The amount of AI required to take on a Chess game is very low. First of all, Chess is a controlled environment. There's no variables or random number generation involved. The CPU simply looks at the board in front of itself during it's turn and makes what it's been programmed to think is the best possible move. For Madden, you got hidden "dice rolls" going on in the background all the time, pitting statistic vs. statistic, weather variables, fatigue, game situation, clock management, etc... etc... There's so many different variables in the game that change constantly and randomly that it's much more difficult to pin-down counter strategies.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:34 AM   #75
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

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Originally Posted by Netherscourge
The amount of AI required to take on a Chess game is very low. First of all, Chess is a controlled environment. There's no variables or random number generation involved. The CPU simply looks at the board in front of itself during it's turn and makes what it's been programmed to think is the best possible move. For Madden, you got hidden "dice rolls" going on in the background all the time, pitting statistic vs. statistic, weather variables, fatigue, game situation, clock management, etc... etc... There's so many different variables in the game that change constantly and randomly that it's much more difficult to pin-down counter strategies.
Yes, there is a lot of randomness that goes into fooball but there is not an overwhelming amount of randomness or variealbility that goes into playcalling or making adjustments. The CPU can already adjust their playcall to the actual play that the user calls so how much tougher would it really be to rather than linking it to the actual play called, link it to the player tendencies and former successes
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Old 04-06-2009, 11:56 AM   #76
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

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Originally Posted by Vikes1
About the "Cheating", Shotgun.

What drives me nuts at times is the "Comeback" AI. Theres been times vs the cpu in franchise mode, that I've had a decent time playing the cpu. A pretty hard fought back and forth game. Only to have it ruined in the final minute by the Superman Comeback AI.

Playing on All-Madden level...I recently snapped a nine game losing streak. One of those nine games was a blowout loss. Of the other eight, seven were lost in the final 1:00 to 1:30, with the cpu's last possession. What really bothered me was, that when I was leading by 4-6 points...the now unstoppable cpu when down the field and scored a TD. And ironically, if I lead by 1-2...yep...field goal. The cpu got just what it needed each time. The cheating, in my opinion was beyond obvious. I felt like I had just wasted an hour and a half of my day.

I'm really hoping that with M10, we're challenged on All-Madden by having to make good plays, and call a good defensive game. If not...you lose. Instead of the cpu turning into Superman, and the User team into Olive oil. If I couldn't stand to lose...I wouldn't be playing on All-Madden...but not like this.
Great points all. Certainly speaks to my own experiences over the last 10 years. Here's the problem: if they fix the cheats and not the AI, the CPU will be a pushover. If that happens everyone will be screaming to make it harder and Ian and his team will be tempted to let the cheating back in.

I am taking Ian at his word that he's working on the problem. But without some kind of stat-based play-calling as a bare minimum, you're never going to see a great game whistle-to-gun.

I also will rehash the adjustable zone issue. This is the money play killer and without it no CPU arsenal is complete.

As to the 2 minute warning phenomenon, that's the CPU trying to emulate NFL football. The problem is that so many teams in the NFL run the "prevent" defense. Tom Brady has made a career out of dinking and dunking the ball into FG range against prevent defenses (which is why I continue to label him as a fraud).

If you don't go prevent, the CPU doesn't know what to do. So it cheats to make the game more exiting. Yes, the CPU should pass more in the 4th. But it should also be attacking the weak points in your defense. NOT BY KNOWING WHAT YOU CALLED, but by guessing what you called based on your tendencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netherscourge
The amount of AI required to take on a Chess game is very low. First of all, Chess is a controlled environment. There's no variables or random number generation involved. The CPU simply looks at the board in front of itself during it's turn and makes what it's been programmed to think is the best possible move. For Madden, you got hidden "dice rolls" going on in the background all the time, pitting statistic vs. statistic, weather variables, fatigue, game situation, clock management, etc... etc... There's so many different variables in the game that change constantly and randomly that it's much more difficult to pin-down counter strategies.
You're right but you're looking at it in the wrong way. In a chess game the CPU has to be right all the time because the variables are so cut and dried. There is little room for error.

In football the CPU only has to be right most of the time, or in one crucial situation to win a game. So it's task is much easier to accomplish because it can make a great many errors and still win.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:26 PM   #77
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

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Originally Posted by Vikes1
No question thats true Jump.

But it's just this feeling of helplessness I get, when the cpu puts together that last minute drive. And the fact...at least in my case, the cpu getting just what it needed to win? That really makes me wonder. "Comeback" AI is debatable...but to me, it sure seems to be there.
I know what you mean.

There is one thing that makes me think that there is comeback AI. When the cpu is down late in the game, their wide receivers which have probably only broken 1 or 2 tackles throughout the whole game, start shedding defenders like hall of fame running backs.

I HATE that.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:06 PM   #78
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

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Originally Posted by Jump
I know what you mean.

There is one thing that makes me think that there is comeback AI. When the cpu is down late in the game, their wide receivers which have probably only broken 1 or 2 tackles throughout the whole game, start shedding defenders like hall of fame running backs.

I HATE that.
Heh. Tony Romo here channeling Jim Brown..

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2039388645
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:37 PM   #79
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

this year showed me that all games released must be edited further or else we get the garbage aimed at the masses.

if you consider your self a sim type of gamer you have to spend 5 hrs editing these games.

i wont say all madden cheats, to make the games harder the all madden setting enforces the ratings at 99 in all categories that have at least 85 normal rating. thats my opinion.

it would be difficult to execute difficulty any other way becuase the playbook is not seperated into sections. if the play book had plays considered expert or harder plays them they could let the comp do those on higher difficulties so since there is no such sorting the game has to play maxed in the stats dept.
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Old 04-06-2009, 11:37 PM   #80
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Re: IBM's "Deep Blue" computer beat the chess champ in '97,but we can't have adaptive

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Originally Posted by carnalnirvava

if you consider your self a sim type of gamer you have to spend 5 hrs editing these games.

i
It usually takes me a full year of a test franchise to iron out my sliders. Then I start again with the team that i really want to play with.
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