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Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Old 04-12-2009, 11:03 PM   #25
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven Draconian
I never read anything that said the human teams DB would change assignments or anything like that.

The feature is just an awareness boost based on recognition of the same pattern. IE, the corner "recognizes" the out pattern earlier in the route then he did the first few times that pattern was run.

For a human controlled defense this isn't an audible or a hot-route defensively, it's a simple awarness boost once a play is ran a certain amount of times.
QFT

Adaptive ai isn't some cheesy cheat like catchup in motor racing games. It doesn't hot route your defenders to do something you never intended them to. It gives them PRC on routes they've seen repeatedly. IN essence, it stops them playing like *******es.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:12 PM   #26
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by TombSong
If the defensive plays stop what they are designed to stop(within reason of the player talent on the team) and the offense is not given the ability to exploit the defense in a cheating way, there is no need for adaptive ai on the human team.

If someone is constantly throwing a 5yd out you will either call a zone defense that puts players in that area of the field or call man and put your best cover man on that WR.

If the defender is not noted for playing zones well and keeps allowing a WR to beat him. You gotta make a adjustment in personel or play calling. The player should not be made to do what he normally cannot.

You say if he recognises that play let him be able to jump it. OK now the O has to know this too, so now they call a in instead of a out. Shouldnt the Db still get burned because now he is overplaying for the out ? If I called a play expecting him to cover inside and he plays outside based on a tendeny tracked by the cpu, and the offense goes inside, I am gonna be pissed.

They need to make sure the players and the plays do what they are suppose to do. You the coach have to call your plays based on tendency and the ability of your defense.

If I have slow CB's I cant expect to play man against a team with fast Wrs without deep help, OR getting some kind of consistent pass pressure. I also cant expect the game to cheat up my defense to do what they are not able to do in real life.

Not saying you, but some people think there are defenses that stop everything and there are not. If someone is good enough to make reads and exploit what you are doing to them they should be able to without worrying about the cpu cheating the defense up to play how they really should not.

We have not had a Madden game that did not give one side of the ball some type of advantage that could be stopped by sound play calling. We have always had to find a way to game the game and exploit the exploit.
Very good points.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:37 PM   #27
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by Valdarez
Play Based vs. Route Based Adaptive AI
The current implementation appears to be based on the routes, instead of the play. I wonder why they don't do it based on both? Give the defense a huge bonus against the 4 to 5 play wonders out there.
Wow, so basically force people to play in a specific way? Why even play humans at that point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
Keep track of every play a team plays on offense. Every time a play is called, it goes from green to yellow shading. Then the next time it's called, it goes from yellow to red shading. The color indicates how well the defense will recognize the play. The defense will get a speed / recognition boost so they can better lock down the play, even though a player might not have called the right defensive play. This would help avoid scenarios where players are able to be effective using a limited set of plays all game long.
Wow again, I mean WOW! You can't possibly be serious with this. So you want to be rewarded for calling the WRONG defense altogether?! So its somehow my fault that you don't know any better and you keep calling Quarters vs my I Form Dive, yet I'm the one that is supposed to be punished for taking advantage of your lack of football knowledge?! And not only do you want that but you also want players to magically become FASTER as well to assist your lack of football knowledge?!!

Did I interpret all that correctly? I certainly hope not.

BTW, have you ever thought about a route in a specific play setting up another bigger route in the same play later in the game? I've run the same play with the same look for short yardage on numerous occasions only to setup a HR ball from the same play later in the game once I feel confident that my opponent will bite on the underneath stuff... Your system would make this type of chess match impossible.

Last edited by CapnKill; 04-20-2009 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:46 PM   #28
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
I think it's going to be very important, from a competitive standpoint, that if you are going to be penalized for a certain behavior (running the same route multiple times) that the game give you some type of warning / notification so you can avoid the penalty. I'm old, and my memory isn't what it used to be. I'm lucky if I can remember the play I'm running, much less the 20 plays that came before hand.
If I'm about to throw a pick, the game doesn't warn me that I shouldn't make that throw because it might get picked. I'm not sure why you should get some warning if you aren't mixing your plays up. If you make a bad throw, that's on you. If you run similar routes without keeping the defense honest, I'm not sure why that wouldn't also be on you.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:46 PM   #29
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by mikeacard
i can only control one player on defense, so when someone is using a play that can exploit multiple players in the defense the adaptive a.i. is needed for the human. for example using a fast qb like mcnabb and rolling him out with a receiver running an 8 yard crossing route across the field. right now i have a choice i can either control a player and have him cover the scramble of the qb or cover the crossing route by the wr. whatever i do the person im playing against can exploit the a.i. of the cpu for the other matchup.

so lets say i decide im gonna cover mcnabb with a linebacker while he rolls out, and ill keep my db in man coverage on the crossing route. the other player will see that i am covering the roll out so he will make the quick throw to a the wr for a decent gain each time, because my db will never "learn" that the crossing route is coming. this means he will never jump the route no matter how many times it is run. so i get tired of getting beat by the pass so i tell the backer to spy the qb and manually cover the wr. now the player sees that the scramble will be available because the a.i. is too dumb to cover the scramble by its self. the backer may get into position but nobody else on the defense will realize that a scramble is coming no matter how many times it happens in a row, leaving the player to make one person miss in order to get a decent gain while im covering the crossing route manually.

correct play call is only half the battle. it is still neccesary for a humans a.i. teamates to "learn" and cover things that the human player is not able to cover.
I'm not seeing your point here. If you assign a QB Spy to McNabb and McNabb happens to beat your spy with a type of move then that's that... that's how it goes... maybe next time put a DE in contain as well, or assign two guys the QB Spy role... you have lots of options to work with.
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:53 PM   #30
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Both ends of the spectrum here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet Bandit
If I'm about to throw a pick, the game doesn't warn me that I shouldn't make that throw because it might get picked. I'm not sure why you should get some warning if you aren't mixing your plays up. If you make a bad throw, that's on you. If you run similar routes without keeping the defense honest, I'm not sure why that wouldn't also be on you.
Your comparison isn't valid, one is a game play mechanic and the other is a simple statistical feedback.

Stats are part of the game, and are already displayed in some form on the right side of the play call screen. Adding some type of feedback to allow for the impact of the adaptive AI should be fairly trivial. If nothing else, a simple way to help us keep track of the plays we have called would be beneficial. After all, if they are going to penalize us for not mixing it up, then they should provide aids to help us keep track of what we have called. This is just good software / game design.

I'm just throwing out ideas here, but how about the following:

1) Offensive Coordinator
Displays the probability of a playing being picked up on and/or countered by the defense based on the number of times a play and routes in the play have been run and based on the defensive calls of the defense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
Wow again, I mean WOW! You can't possibly be serious with this. So you want to be rewarded for calling the WRONG defense altogether?! So its somehow my fault that you don't know any better and you keep calling Quarters vs my I Form Dive, yet I'm the one that is supposed to be punished for taking advantage of your lack of football knowledge?! And not only do you want that but you also want players to magically become FASTER as well to assist your lack of football knowledge?!!

Did I interpret all that correctly? I certainly hope not.

BTW, have you ever thought about a route in a specific play setting up another bigger route in the same play later in the game? I've run the same play with the same look for short yardage on numerous occasions only to setup a HR ball from the same play later in the game once I feel confident that my opponent will bite on the underneath stuff... Your system would make this type of chess match impossible.
I think you're over simplifying things. In APF2K8 you can call the perfect defense for a route, and the player will still make a play at times. I'm not sure how often that occurs in Madden, but the Adaptive AI should ensure that when a route is used over and over again, that these miracle catches are shut down completely.

In addition, when you do happen to call the wrong play to stop a route that the offense has used over, and over, and over again, then yes, I think there should be some type of AI that makes the defense more aware of the play that's about to occur. Why? Because you rarely see a team on Sunday call the same 5 plays all game long, yet it's not uncommon to see 5 play wonders in online video games (Madden Nation anyone?). This is where the emulation of having 11 guys behaving individually on the field comes into play. Does it mean they will shut it down? Maybe, maybe not, but the point is the odds of success for the play should go down the more often it is used.

The Madden team could accomplish this in multiple ways.

1) Smart Players
By making the LBs/DBs more intelligent, emulating the fact that they are picking up on the play calls and having them hit the holes quicker for sacks / tackles, or anticipating and covering routes better than they would have other wise.

2) Emulated Defensive Coordinator Analysis
Provide a new Defensive Coordinator option that provides a level of feedback on the defensive plays that are available and the likelihood that they will stop the next anticipated play. Plays that would have a higher statistical chance of succeeding would be plays that would stop the routes already selected by the player.


To summarize this long post, the point is that feedback needs to be on both the offensive and defensive side of the ball. The offense needs some type of feedback to help them stay honest, and the defense needs some way of keeping the offense honest when the same play/route is being run over and over again.
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:56 PM   #31
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Why would someone bring back a thread from 8 days ago?
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:08 PM   #32
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
After all, if they are going to penalize us for not mixing it up, then they should provide aids to help us keep track of what we have called.
I don't think you've explained why this is, though. Why is it the game's responsibility to make sure you don't call similar plays or similar routes? This seems like a pretty fundamental part of playcalling, not being predictable, so why isn't it your responsibility?

I understand the whole 'lots of coordinators' thing, but I'm not sure those guys are there to tally the number of times the X receiver has run an out route. I very well could be wrong, though.
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