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Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Old 04-20-2009, 07:32 PM   #33
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet Bandit
I understand the whole 'lots of coordinators' thing, but I'm not sure those guys are there to tally the number of times the X receiver has run an out route. I very well could be wrong, though.
Yep, you are wrong. I suggest you read the blog on Adapative AI. (Link -- > http://insideblog.easports.com/archi...en-nfl-10.aspx)
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:32 PM   #34
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by Valdarez
I think you're over simplifying things. In APF2K8 you can call the perfect defense for a route, and the player will still make a play at times. I'm not sure how often that occurs in Madden, but the Adaptive AI should ensure that when a route is used over and over again, that these miracle catches are shut down completely.

In addition, when you do happen to call the wrong play to stop a route that the offense has used over, and over, and over again, then yes, I think there should be some type of AI that makes the defense more aware of the play that's about to occur. Why? Because you rarely see a team on Sunday call the same 5 plays all game long, yet it's not uncommon to see 5 play wonders in online video games (Madden Nation anyone?).
I guarantee you that if an NFL team on Sunday would have success with a play more than once and that the defensive coordinator refused to adjust accordingly that they would run the same thing over and over, but obviously in the NFL Coordinators are a bit smarter than that.

Look, I'm playing on-line to play people with a pulse... people that I expect adjustments from. I throw something at them and then I expect them to adjust accordingly... that's the fun of it, that's the chess match.... then they adjust and now I have to do something different, and that's how it goes for the whole game, and its a BLAST!! I'm willing to tolerate the level of adaptive AI that Ian has discussed, although I really don't like it at all, but to implement something that helps someone successfully defend an offense even though they have the wrong personal on the field altogether is lunacy!

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Originally Posted by rgiles36
This is where the emulation of having 11 guys behaving individually on the field comes into play. Does it mean they will shut it down? Maybe, maybe not, but the point is the odds of success for the play should go down the more often it is used.
The odds of the plays success should go down the more often it is used, I agree, but not because of Adaptive AI, but because of my opponent figuring sh1t out! I'm playing a human because I want a human response. I don't want the AI response to what I'm doing, I want the guy on the other end to adjust to what I'm doing. If I wanted to play the AI I'd play off-line.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:35 PM   #35
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by Wet Bandit
I don't think you've explained why this is, though. Why is it the game's responsibility to make sure you don't call similar plays or similar routes? This seems like a pretty fundamental part of playcalling, not being predictable, so why isn't it your responsibility?
Providing you information so you can mix up plays is far different from ensuring you do mix them up. At the end of the day it's still up to you to call a play.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:38 PM   #36
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by Valdarez
Providing you information so you can mix up plays is far different from ensuring you do mix them up. At the end of the day it's still up to you to call a play.
Why is the game forcing me to mix up plays? I paid 60 bucks just like the other guy, if I want to run HB Slam all game long then I should and the only thing that should stop me from doing it is my OPPONENT and not the magical AI.

Just make sure that we have all the tools we need to stop everything the offense can throw at us and that's all you gotta do, let us handle everything else!

Once again, Adaptive AI is FANTASTIC for Off-line, but on-line, no thanks.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:41 PM   #37
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by CapnKill
I guarantee you that if an NFL team on Sunday would have success with a play more than once and that the defensive coordinator refused to adjust accordingly that they would run the same thing over and over, but obviously in the NFL Coordinators are a bit smarter than that.

Look, I'm playing on-line to play people with a pulse... people that I expect adjustments from. I throw something at them and then I expect them to adjust accordingly... that's the fun of it, that's the chess match.... then they adjust and now I have to do something different, and that's how it goes for the whole game, and its a BLAST!! I'm willing to tolerate the level of adaptive AI that Ian has discussed, although I really don't like it at all, but to implement something that helps someone successfully defend an offense even though they have the wrong personal on the field altogether is lunacy!
Again, over simplifying. You can draw a hard line both ways. Adaptive AI shouldn't play the game for you, which is basically what you are eluding to. At the end of the day what we should see though is defensive players playing much more intelligently and offenses having to be far more diverse in their play calling. Just like you see on Sunday, right?
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:47 PM   #38
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by CapnKill
Once again, Adaptive AI is FANTASTIC for Off-line, but on-line, no thanks.
You and I will have to disagree on that one. If I want a game of one on one, I'll go play a game of boxing (Fight Night Round 2). When there's a game with 22 guys on the field, then they should behave as individuals carrying out a team plan, and with that comes randomness to their play coupled with intelligence.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:51 PM   #39
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by Valdarez
Again, over simplifying. You can draw a hard line both ways. Adaptive AI shouldn't play the game for you, which is basically what you are eluding to.
This is what the OP was wanting basically. He wanted the defense to not only get intelligence boosts but also physical boosts like SPEED when the same play was run over and over. So if I run I Form 2 WR HB Dive and my opponent stubbornly sticks to Quarters D, the OP would want that Quarters D to play faster and better to stop the HB Dive which I find completely wrong.

I mean.. SPEED... he wanted a SPEED BOOST! I mean.. really? My 75 SPD LBer is going to go to 80 SPD because you ran the sam eplay on me 5 times during the game?! REALLY?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiles36
At the end of the day what we should see though is defensive players playing much more intelligently and offenses having to be far more diverse in their play calling. Just like you see on Sunday, right?
I want the players to play based on their ratings. I don't want their ratings to change during the game... I want them to be what they were at the beginning. If I'm dealinv with a 99 AWR CB with 99 man coverage ability then I expect to have a very diffucult time completing a pass on that CB. Not because Adaptive AI, but because that CB is really damn good!

If I have TO matched up on a poor DB then I expect to abuse that DB unless my opponent adjusts.

If I constantly destroy a CB with short slants, I expect my opponent to use DB Shading (Hopefully a feature we will get) to tell the DB to take away the inside at the obvious risk of exposing the outside a bit more or use doubel coverage. I DON"T expect the AI to automatically make that adjustment for him. I expect a plethora of tools to be available on defense that would allow me to tell the DB to take the inside away, or take the outside away, or play the curl (exposing him to a double move), or play the deep stuff, exposing him to the curl...

Just give us the tools we need to cover everything and let the chess match ensue!! Don't make the AI do this stuff for us! Let us handle it, its so much more satisfying when you do things yourself!

Its all about the tools, its all about making defensive playmakering easier to use so you aren't limited to 2 changes before someone snaps on you, and its all about fixing the game so that nothing is undefendable.

I sound like a broken record, I know, but I feel very strongly about this. Just give us the tools and let us play the game.

Last edited by CapnKill; 04-20-2009 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:54 PM   #40
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Originally Posted by Valdarez
Providing you information so you can mix up plays is far different from ensuring you do mix them up. At the end of the day it's still up to you to call a play.
We'll just agree to disagree. I don't think your opinion is a bad one, I can see the logic to it, I just disagree with it.

Imagine if we were two of the developers tasked with figuring this out, though. I'd imagine it'd be a tough job to form a consensus on these sort of half-full/half-empty sort of debates.
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