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Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

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Old 04-20-2009, 08:11 PM   #41
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
This is what the OP was wanting basically. He wanted the defense to not only get intelligence boosts but also physical boosts like SPEED when the same play was run over and over. So if I run I Form 2 WR HB Dive and my opponent stubbornly sticks to Quarters D, the OP would want that Quarters D to play faster and better to stop the HB Dive which I find completely wrong.

I mean.. SPEED... he wanted a SPEED BOOST! I mean.. really? My 75 SPD LBer is going to go to 80 SPD because you ran the sam eplay on me 5 times during the game?! REALLY?!
I suggest you reread the original post and look at the word that's coupled with speed. I was the OP.

I'm not sure how their engine works, and speed might not be the right term to use. They need to make it such that the individual players recognize the route/play better and react accordingly (within limits).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
I want the players to play based on their ratings. I don't want their ratings to change during the game...
They aren't changing. They can add an intelligence ability now if you like. Maybe it's already covered with awareness though, all depends on how their game engine works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
If I constantly destroy a CB with short slants, I expect my opponent to use DB Shading (Hopefully a feature we will get) to tell the DB to take away the inside at the obvious risk of exposing the outside a bit more.
I have mixed feelings about inside / outside shading from playing APF2K8. Problem with this approach in APF2K8 was that you shaded ALL of your DBs inside and outside. There was no individual assignments. Then the problem with individual assignments is that there is never enough time to set them up due to quick hiking. I like the concept, but in a fast paced game it doesn't seem all that practical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
Just give us the tools we need to cover everything and let the chess match ensue!! Don't make the AI do this stuff for us! Let us handle it, its so much more satisfying when you do things yourself!
Remember, you have tools on offense too. It's called 'more plays'.

I have a pretty strong view on the answer to this question, but I'm wondering what other people think:

Is the reason teams don't run the same 5 offensive plays over and over again due to the play calling by the coach, or the play recognition of the players?
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:17 PM   #42
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
Why is the game forcing me to mix up plays? I paid 60 bucks just like the other guy, if I want to run HB Slam all game long then I should and the only thing that should stop me from doing it is my OPPONENT and not the magical AI.
You would have really had a hard time transitioning from a traditional RTS to Relic's Company of Heroes. Traditional RTS have explicit attack / defense calculations that are predetermined. Relic's CoH is based on percentages and random rolls, which means not everything is gauranteed. Hopefully the Adapative AI will remove some of the guarantees in Madden.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:33 PM   #43
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
I suggest you reread the original post and look at the word that's coupled with speed. I was the OP.

I'm not sure how their engine works, and speed might not be the right term to use. They need to make it such that the individual players recognize the route/play better and react accordingly (within limits).
My bad, I checked to see if you were OP and for some reason I didn't see it.... but I still feel that your sentence right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
The defense will get a speed / recognition boost so they can better lock down the play
indicates to me that the defense should get a Speed AND recognition boost... I took that literally to mean that a LBer for example would get faster physically (his SPD rating would increase) if he kept seeing the same thing over and over. If that is not what you meant then I apologize for attacking that sentence in that manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
They aren't changing. They can add an intelligence ability now if you like. Maybe it's already covered with awareness though, all depends on how their game engine works.
They are now... Adaptive AI will increase the Play Recognition AND Man Coverage stat for a DB if he sees the same route over and over..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
I have mixed feelings about inside / outside shading from playing APF2K8. Problem with this approach in APF2K8 was that you shaded ALL of your DBs inside and outside. There was no individual assignments.
Now we are entering my area where I ask for the tools. Giving me DB Shading but forcing me to apply it to ALL or NONE is not acceptable. I should be able to apply it individually, just like BnR should be as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
Then the problem with individual assignments is that there is never enough time to set them up due to quick hiking. I like the concept, but in a fast paced game it doesn't seem all that practical.
Another example where the real problem is not being addressed. I completely agree that the current NG implementation of Defensive Playmakering where you are forced to hit X and then use both analog sticks to do what you need to do is far too clunky and limits how many changes you can do on defense before a quick snap.

On the PS2 however, where the control scheme for Defensive Playmaerking was MUCH better, you could do many more adjustments. I had enough time on the PS2 to make at LEAST 4 adjusments before a quick snap. You could shade one DB, bump with another, change the zone of a LBer, and tell yoru D-line to loop or something... heck if you get fast enough you could easily do more.

I mean for the most part if you pick a play that is setup how you want it you don't really need to make more than 4 or 5 adjustments tops... I mean if you have to make more then you probably should pick a play that is closer to what you intend to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
Remember, you have tools on offense too. It's called 'more plays'.
The offense has always had plenty of tools, its the defensive that needs the help.

  1. Easier Playmakering Control scheme
  2. Abilitiy to individually bump WRs
  3. Ability to individually shade WRs
    1. Shade Inside
    2. Shade Outside
    3. Defend Curl
    4. Defend deep ball
  4. Ability to Zone to 1st down marker
The sad thing is that this stuff has been in the PS2 game for ever now... except for the defending Curl thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
Is the reason teams don't run the same 5 offensive plays over and over again due to the play calling by the coach, or the play recognition of the players?
Its the offense and D coordinators. Players aren't supposed to leave their assignment because then they leave holes. Everyone on D does what they are supposed to do and trust the guy next to you to do the same. Yes, you occaisionaly see players "sniff" a screen for example and make a play, and yes that is the player making that play and not the coordinator, but that is AWR and Play Recognition and I expect players who have high stats in those areas to make such plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
You would have really had a hard time transitioning from a traditional RTS to Relic's Company of Heroes. Traditional RTS have explicit attack / defense calculations that are predetermined. Relic's CoH is based on percentages and random rolls, which means not everything is gauranteed. Hopefully the Adapative AI will remove some of the guarantees in Madden.
The only reason something is guaranteed is because your opponent allows it to be guarnated. Once again, stricly speaking about LEGIT plays, not exploits or cheats.

Last edited by CapnKill; 04-20-2009 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:43 PM   #44
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
I suggest you reread the original post and look at the word that's coupled with speed. I was the OP.

I'm not sure how their engine works, and speed might not be the right term to use. They need to make it such that the individual players recognize the route/play better and react accordingly (within limits).
Madden has a Play Recognition rating. I'm guessing that's what you meant and not an actual physical speed boost, but the speed at which the defender recognizes the play.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:12 AM   #45
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet Bandit
Madden has a Play Recognition rating. I'm guessing that's what you meant and not an actual physical speed boost, but the speed at which the defender recognizes the play.
Speed was a bad choice of words, what I meant was they would react faster. So, quicker off the line if it's a run, better read if it's a run vs. pass, better coverage on the route, and so forth.

I honestly don't play Madden (other than enough to get my 360 achievements) so I'm not going to pretend to know what their abilities are, or how they affect the game.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:24 AM   #46
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
Now we are entering my area where I ask for the tools. Giving me DB Shading but forcing me to apply it to ALL or NONE is not acceptable. I should be able to apply it individually, just like BnR should be as well.
Agreed, but again, I don't really think it's practical without drastically slowing down the pace of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
Another example where the real problem is not being addressed. I completely agree that the current NG implementation of Defensive Playmakering where you are forced to hit X and then use both analog sticks to do what you need to do is far too clunky and limits how many changes you can do on defense before a quick snap.

On the PS2 however, where the control scheme for Defensive Playmaerking was MUCH better, you could do many more adjustments. I had enough time on the PS2 to make at LEAST 4 adjusments before a quick snap. You could shade one DB, bump with another, change the zone of a LBer, and tell yoru D-line to loop or something... heck if you get fast enough you could easily do more.
Interesting. APF2K8 gives you roughly 6 seconds, but only about 3 seconds to make adjustments after you can see the formation. 3 seconds is not enough to make more than 2 adjustments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
The offense has always had plenty of tools, its the defensive that needs the help.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnKill
Its the offense and D coordinators. Players aren't supposed to leave their assignment because then they leave holes. Everyone on D does what they are supposed to do and trust the guy next to you to do the same. Yes, you occaisionaly see players "sniff" a screen for example and make a play, and yes that is the player making that play and not the coordinator, but that is AWR and Play Recognition and I expect players who have high stats in those areas to make such plays.
In the passing game, it's going to be more true, but I'm willing to bet there's a LOT of LBs that are going to disagree with your view.



The only reason something is guaranteed is because your opponent allows it to be guarnated. Once again, stricly speaking about LEGIT plays, not exploits or cheats.[/quote]
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:13 AM   #47
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Alot of good stuff here.

I dont know what the current EA Dev Team is shooting for but we all gotta remember in the end this is a game emulating a game.

War games let you setup your defenses how you want and go on the offensive how you want. Its up to you on how much you spend on defensive/offensive equipment and its up to you how you use it to determine the outcome. A well balanced game requires no cheating up of the AI controlled team mates of the human controlled team.

It seems to be the Tiburon mantra to NOT balance and fix the problems but rather cheat up the AI to hide the flaws, which leads to alot of crazy behaviors by the AI and the humans to counter it all.

I would like to think this is all changing with this years Madden. The AI blog concerns me because it seems to be a co-sign to taking the responsibility of you being the coach/coordinator of your squad and is passing it on to the cpu.

This "game" is suppose to be about letting you coach/coordinate/play owner of your team. Thats the challenge.
What decides the outcome of success and failure in the real world should be emulated in the game. If x defensive line stunts defeat y offensive line blocking then thats what we should see 90% of the time.

If I am calling run plays that require guards to pull and i dont have good pulling guards in real life on that team, then I should struggle when calling run plays that require pulling guards.

I the ultimate AI, should take all this info and call plays based on the personel on my team, my opponents team, and as the game is played adjust according to what my opponent is doing. Like the war games, the football game should only provide instruments of war and make sure they work as advertised, and make sure the game is balanced by no one entity being god like in its function. Everything should have counters.

If this is done RIGHT I should not have to concern myself with how my AI is playing but rather what tool(counter) am I gonna select to adjust to whats happening to me on the field.

Last edited by TombSong; 04-21-2009 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:37 AM   #48
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Re: Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
I think it's going to be very important, from a competitive standpoint, that if you are going to be penalized for a certain behavior (running the same route multiple times) that the game give you some type of warning / notification so you can avoid the penalty. I'm old, and my memory isn't what it used to be. I'm lucky if I can remember the play I'm running, much less the 20 plays that came before hand.
I could not disagree more...

For years and years now we have all heard of the vaunted value of "stick skills" (ie. - a player physically beating the game by maneuvering his digital pixels in ways that either the CPU of another human opponent could not match) as THE factor in success or fail in Madden. Now the game is being changed to allow for more strategy and thinking and the first thing you want is a cheat sheet?!?!?!

Since the description of the Adaptive AI (which I am VERY skeptical of in the first place...let's be honest, EA Sports "new" features seldom work correctly the first year out no matter what they are - (there are usually serious balance issues and the feature is either waaaaaaaaaay overpowered - like the "Impact Players" in NCAA or the "Hit Stick 1.0"; or they are completely nerfed and useless) but giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming things work the way Ian describes, you won't get an instant penalty for calling the same play and it will rise AND fall with frequency...so if you call the same 2-3 plays the whole game, the CPU controlled players will react to shut it down, but if you mix in other plays and control the frequency of calling the same play you will be fine.

The way I understand that, it means that you could conceivably get away with calling the same play 8, 9 even 10 times in a game - as long as it is spaced out and separated by mixing in a good number of other plays...but the could not run the same play 8 or 9 times in a single drive or even a single quarter without negative effects.

Another reason I oppose adding visual cues to the play calling is that in head-to-head games that gives your opponent an unfair advantage - they do not need to bother with play recognition or adjusting to what they are seeing on the field...they could just steal a glance at your color coded play call screen and pretty much get extra info without even knowing what they are doing. We do not need to make the game easier for live opponents that way...online games? Maybe... Head-to-head games? No way!

The final reason I do not agree that visual clues in the playcalling is necessary is that playcalling is a skill in my eyes...every bit a football-related skill as "stick skills" are a video game skill. The balance between "football skill" and "videogame skill" has been slanted so far to the videogame side for so long that I welcome ANY changes that would force people to utilize and improve their football skills to remain competitive. If a player is just picking plays with no forethought or gameplan - to the point that they really do not even realize which plays they are calling (either by type of play such as counter, dive, PA, slants, corners, crosses, etc.; or by specific play such as I-Normal HB Toss, etc.), then that player is deficient in their football skills and SHOULD need to work on it to remain competitive over the long run.

If the game is nerfed to provide visual clues and actual numbers, then I don't see how that promotes players learning to play the game more like football and less like a videogame. Ultimately, this is just my opinion, but I hope that makes sense - none of this is meant to say that the OP does not know football...just trying (probably less successfully than I would like) to make an anaolgy...
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