Adaptive AI - Play Based vs Route Based

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by Moostache

If the game is nerfed to provide visual clues and actual numbers, then I don't see how that promotes players learning to play the game more like football and less like a videogame. Ultimately, this is just my opinion, but I hope that makes sense - none of this is meant to say that the OP does not know football...just trying (probably less successfully than I would like) to make an anaolgy...

Well said, but we definitely disagree. In a real football game you know darn well the coordinators are taking notes as the game progresses. Watching how the defense covers routes, what's open, if someone is cheating inside to stop an slant or in route and such. The visual cues amount to no more than a very limited (very limited) representation of what the offensive coordinator would have available to him when making their play calls.

In the last 10 years games have gone to a very limited HUD, which is something I absolutely abhor. Provide all of the feedback for gamers to play / enjoy the game, and then let gamers customize it if they don't want to see everything.

If the number of times a route is run is going to impact the way the defense plays, then we need some way to understand that before we make a play call. They already know the numbers (per the Defensive AI blog) and they already provide other stats (via the Play Call screen / right side), so adding feedback to the user should be fairly straight forward. If only a break down of the number of times the play has been run and a break down of the number of times a specific route has been run.

[CapnKill]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Interesting. APF2K8 gives you roughly 6 seconds, but only about 3 seconds to make adjustments after you can see the formation. 3 seconds is not enough to make more than 2 adjustments.

Yeah, I didn't really care too much about 2ks playmakering implementation either. I'd have to say that if you want to see it done the best you gotta pop in a PS2 version of Madden, its simply brilliant:

1. Highlight the player (no need to press X or anything)
2. Press the Analog stick in a direction (or double tap for some zones). So if you want a flat zone you hit the stick to the right once, if you want a purple zone you tap it to the right twice. (You never need more than a double tap for anything).

And that's it. And it works great. You don't have to remember which stick is for what... there's just one stick and it does everything. I still don't understand why they had to change it... the goal should be to make the transition from teh PS2 game to the 360 / ps3 game as smooth as possible, and then they take something that worked great on the PS2 and change it completely ... The logic there escapes me, its just so bizzare that someone not only had this idea but that enough people agreed with it.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by CapnKill

Yeah, I didn't really care too much about 2ks playmakering implementation either. I'd have to say that if you want to see it done the best you gotta pop in a PS2 version of Madden, its simply brilliant: 1. Highlight the player (no need to press X or anything) 2. Press the Analog stick in a direction (or double tap for some zones). So if you want a flat zone you hit the stick to the right once, if you want a purple zone you tap it to the right twice. (You never need more than a double tap for anything). And that's it. And it works great. You don't have to remember which stick is for what... there's just one stick and it does everything. I still don't understand why they had to change it... the goal should be to make the transition from teh PS2 game to the 360 / ps3 game as smooth as possible, and then they take something that worked great on the PS2 and change it completely ... The logic there escapes me, its just so bizzare that someone not only had this idea but that enough people agreed with it.

disagree here. AP2K8 was actually better for calling hot assignments. I can make calls for my whole backfield in seconds.
You hold the trigger and all the players icons pop up. just keep the trigger held down and select the player you want and make the call...pop pop, thats it. You can make calls for the whole backfield in 3 seconds if you know what you want to do. Same thing for the LB's.

I just wish they let shift the defensive line like they allowed in 2K5.

[CapnKill]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

disagree here. AP2K8 was actually better for calling hot assignments. I can make calls for my whole backfield in seconds. You hold the trigger and all the players icons pop up. just keep the trigger held down and select the player you want and make the call...pop pop, thats it. You can make calls for the whole backfield in 3 seconds if you know what you want to do. Same thing for the LB's. I just wish they let shift the defensive line like they allowed in 2K5.

There might be things that 2k did well that combined with the PS2 implementation could give us the best of both worlds. I think we can both agree however that the Madden PS3/360 implementation is by far the worst of the 3.

Also I think we can agree that the inability in 2k to individually bump or shade was also a problem if I recall correctly.

[Maelstrom-XIII]

My only concern about adaptive AI (okay, not my only concern, but..) is this:

Say I am the Panthers. They like to have a run-first offense...sometimes they'll go a whole series of just runs. If I run a HB Toss, then a HB Stretch (which usually gets bumped outside) will that count as two outside runs? Or is the AI going to say, those were two different plays, no adaptive AI needed....If it is the former, then it will be difficult to have any success running the ball as I usually try to run 25-30 times a game with Double Trouble, and you can either run inside or outside...

[SA1NT401]

Madden has had pretty much the SAME plays for years now. A few new ones here and there, but overall not much new.

IF...AAI is going to work and IF it is going to make the game play dramtically different, this HAS to happen......5 times as many plays on Offense and Defense.

There are just not that many radically different plays in Madden. Some people run plays SEVERAL times due to the fact there are not that many to begin with. I use ALL of the plays in my book as well as other books and for the most part they are not that different. Not to mention all the BOGUS throw-aways the hardly ever work.

Boy would i love a game where you didnt have to ever run the same play twice. Dare to dream...

[wordtobigbird]

Quote: Originally Posted by Maelstrom-XIII

My only concern about adaptive AI (okay, not my only concern, but..) is this: Say I am the Panthers. They like to have a run-first offense...sometimes they'll go a whole series of just runs. If I run a HB Toss, then a HB Stretch (which usually gets bumped outside) will that count as two outside runs? Or is the AI going to say, those were two different plays, no adaptive AI needed....If it is the former, then it will be difficult to have any success running the ball as I usually try to run 25-30 times a game with Double Trouble, and you can either run inside or outside...

i think you are making the assumption that with adaptive ai the cpu will start playing over their head and be able to stop anything you start doing well at. hopefully it isnt like the MaddenIQ (which is like what youre saying) where the next game the CPU is just unrealistically good.

just because the CPU knows you are probably going to run again, they shouldnt be able to just stop it. they should just call smart plays. you could tell the lions last year that teams were running on them every time and they still couldnt do anything about it