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Old 04-19-2009, 02:54 PM   #41
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

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Originally Posted by bang911
If a bar's length is dictated by a certain number or an average of numbers, then isn't it the same as having an exact number? You can still see the difference between players with "90" and "93" ratings.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...3011747764.jpg
Yes and no. I would have discussed APF in greater depth, as that to me is the best rating system for football, but that's taboo here and the Madden devs have invoked The Show as a model sports title. What I like about The Show is that they've made an effort (however imperfect in the case of the bars) at moving away from these placeholder overall numbers, or at least hiding them, in an attempt to get some of the uncertainty that accompanies real-life talent evaluation into the game.

The more of that kind of thing that makes it in Madden, the better in my opinion. I think the addiction to the number is a function of our dependency on video games' representation of reality, not a commitment to getting the principles that guide real talent evaluation into our video games. That needs to be reversed, but I don't think it'll happen.
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Old 04-19-2009, 05:19 PM   #42
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

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Originally Posted by SwayGod53
It would be very interesting to see the ratings numbers hidden from view. Maybe that can be a franchise option down the road. That would really seperate the true GM's from the pack.

Imagine you're in FA, looking at RT's, the only info you could go by was scouting info, past statistics, players size, and possibly some video of the player from the season before. You would really have to do your homework to figure out who was good and who wasn't. You could sign a guy for top money because he had a killer season the year before and then next season he plays just mediocre.

Same thing with the draft, you sign a guy Top 5 because the scouts say he dominated, but then you get him on the field and his game speed is a little slower than you thought, and his toughness isn't where it needs to be. You might draft a guy in the 5th round that plays better than your first rounder.

Definitely something interesting. Don't think the general Madden public would like it but I would be all for the challenge.
This is almost EXACTLY what I am trying to discuss here. Forgive me for making this thread right after work when I am dead tired. Just wanted to get it up before I forgot.

But I'd really like to see the option to hide ratings in franchise mode. NBA 2k does this. They give each player a letter grade in the main categories. To find out who is better you have to look at their statistics and what their player card says about them. Of course you have the option of scouting a certain number of players a month to see their detailed ratings. It just takes a lot of the realism away for me knowing exactly how good a player is at everything.
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:41 PM   #43
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

Madden will NEVER get rid of the overal ratings system. Madden has users of all different ages playing it, a 7 year old is not going to be able to decide who is better between 2 players so they say ok he has a higher overal, im going to use him.

Also overal's are just a guideline you do not HAVE to use them at all. plenty of times in madden i have used a lesser overal player because i prefered his skill set. Ive also signed plenty of cheap free agents based on their attributes not overal, for instance i could (hypothetically speaking dont remember their overals). Sign Ahmad Bradshaw at 80 overal, or Derrick Ward at 82 Overal. I already have a big bruiser in jacobs at rb1, so i go for the homerun hitter who is more elusive and quick in bradshaw. So i take the guy i prefer of similar rated and priced rbs.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:06 PM   #44
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

Couldn't have said it myself. The current system allows Madden players to get as casual or indepth with player ratings as they like. Players that prefer a deep franchise experience can scan through a multitude of stats to find the player that perfectly fits their scheme or find a lesser priced alternative. Meanwhile more casual players can try to sign as many 90+ as they can afford. Win win.

After all, the rating's still there whether its in numbers, letters or stars. You can try to cover it up, make it seem more intuitive then it is. But it's still the ratings that govern the gameplay, and it is one of the few aspect of Madden that honestly does not need fixing or tuning.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:13 PM   #45
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

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Originally Posted by damien6663
Madden will NEVER get rid of the overal ratings system. Madden has users of all different ages playing it, a 7 year old is not going to be able to decide who is better between 2 players so they say ok he has a higher overal, im going to use him.

Also overal's are just a guideline you do not HAVE to use them at all. plenty of times in madden i have used a lesser overal player because i prefered his skill set. Ive also signed plenty of cheap free agents based on their attributes not overal, for instance i could (hypothetically speaking dont remember their overals). Sign Ahmad Bradshaw at 80 overal, or Derrick Ward at 82 Overal. I already have a big bruiser in jacobs at rb1, so i go for the homerun hitter who is more elusive and quick in bradshaw. So i take the guy i prefer of similar rated and priced rbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennesseetitans
Couldn't have said it myself. The current system allows Madden players to get as casual or indepth with player ratings as they like. Players that prefer a deep franchise experience can scan through a multitude of stats to find the player that perfectly fits their scheme or find a lesser priced alternative. Meanwhile more casual players can try to sign as many 90+ as they can afford. Win win.

After all, the rating's still there whether its in numbers, letters or stars. You can try to cover it up, make it seem more intuitive then it is. But it's still the ratings that govern the gameplay, and it is one of the few aspect of Madden that honestly does not need fixing or tuning.

I'm not asking to remove the ratings or anything else like that. I'm talking about a simple option before you start franchise mode to hide all player ratings. Only showing the players college/previous NFL times, 40 times, bench reps etc. With that it allows for a much more in depth franchise mode. You don't know simply by looking at them who is the clear cut better player. Making roster decisions much more difficult, and maybe making preseason worth actually playing?
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:31 PM   #46
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

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Originally Posted by Rocky
I think I get what you're saying. So here's how it would break down for a guy like Adrian Peterson:

Madden's system
OVR: 98
SPD: 96
BRKT: 92
BCV: 88
AWR: 83
ACC: 99
ELU: 90
TRUCK: 91
PWR: 91
CAR: 72
CAT: 77
AGL: 88
DUR: 80

Rocky's System
Elite Level RB
AWR: ****
SPD: *****
AGL: ****
PWR: ****
ELU: ****
BRKT: *****
CON: *****
CAT: ***
PSPR: **
DUR: ***
LDR: ****
CLT: ***
ACC: *****

The idea floated in this thread.
Elite Level RB
World Class Speed at RB
Excellent elusivenss
Spectacular burst (acceleration)
Very good quickness
Solid Power
Above Average at breaking tackles
Finishes runs very well
Average durability; will get hurt
Weak in pass protection
Not a threat to catch the ball out the backfield
Puts the ball on the ground too often




I like this very much, i was thinking of a letter grade system like in the show on the back of the player cards, but this works well also. the stars would be whats shown, and the notes would be on a hypothetical player card, just like in the show. In the show, you could have player a be rated 94 ovr (the bars just stand for numbers, 1-100) and player b be rated 92 ovr. player a has f in contact, but a in power and mixed a's and b's in other things like speed and fielding attributes. player b on the oher hand, would have b contact and b power, and c in fielding and speed. to anyone who's played the show, player a is gonna bat around .220- .250 and have around 30 hr's because of his bad contact skills, while player b would be much more productive batting anywhere from .280 to .320 (depending on if hes hot), and could concievable hit 30-35 homeruns. think of all the difference it makes having grades instead of numbers, because it is more sim to think of a player as "a" for excellent and "c" for average, than 94 and 77 respectively. having things like that really do make people think about other ratings, which could or could not have letters.

I know for a fact college hoops 2k8 had an option to turn letters for grades on or off, and the grades were for all stats and relative to positions, like 77 3 pt rating for a center would be an "a+", while for a sg it would just be a c for average. i thought this was so sick for a game that had more bell curved type ratings like the new madden will. and for the argument about little kids being more arcade, if they have to choose between two players based on overall alone and nothing else, dont you think they might just use something else to decide if they are so narrow minded? like whos name sounds cooler, who has a better number, huh? i know i have when it comes down between two very similar players lol.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:42 PM   #47
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

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Originally Posted by xtremedunkz
I'm not asking to remove the ratings or anything else like that. I'm talking about a simple option before you start franchise mode to hide all player ratings. Only showing the players college/previous NFL times, 40 times, bench reps etc. With that it allows for a much more in depth franchise mode. You don't know simply by looking at them who is the clear cut better player. Making roster decisions much more difficult, and maybe making preseason worth actually playing?
That actually sounds like a pretty good idea. While I'm not for hiding ratings altogether, only certain ratings should be known for a given player at a point in time. For example, throughout the preseason and regular season, you learn a little bit more about a player's rating as they perform those actions in the game. You might not know how well your rookie linebacker can cover NFL tight ends and receivers until you see him in action. Then the game can give you an approximate ratings which becomes more detailed as the player's on your team longer. You might not know your overweight safety could be a linebacker convert until you see him come up and consistently level opposing running backs.

Free agents should be assigned a number range based on your scouts' evaluations of them, which would become more exact as you continue to use that player. I think a system like this could certainly add depth without having too much work on the part of the user (going through mountains of data), as you'd learn more about the players by simply playing the game.

Last edited by tennesseetitans; 04-19-2009 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:43 PM   #48
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Re: Get rid of the "Overall" rating.

that would give incentive to actually play preseason games lol rather than giving up big plays in a season game with a rookie that isnt ready
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