Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

[Pnutt6]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

You're arriving at the wrong conclusion because you're not asking the right question. Why wouldn't you want to throw the ball instantly in real life? What is an unrealistic rollout, and why does it not happen in real life? Answer those questions and you'll solve this problem properly because neither one of these things have anything to do with forced drop backs.

The reaction time of a human, and a video game character are very different. A human QB will never make a throw within 0.1 seconds of snapping the ball like you can in Madden. That is what I consider an "instant throw". It takes more time for the WR and QB to both see what the defense is doing and make that slight adjustment.

Also, a QB will never hike the ball and run parallel with the LOS like I've seen in Madden. They will take a few steps back and rollout.

To me, the forced drop back will make you take the initial steps without being able to do those things.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Please take no offense to this 'bro. But you're really thinking on one side of the ball. You basically want to turn around and pass with no dropback and have a completely accurate throw, right? Well, how unfair is that for the defense? What if the defensive pressure is forcing you to rush your throw but you're able to let off an accurate pass despite being rushed, you should still be rewarded? I understand your gripe but you can't think of how it affects one side of the ball. To me, this dropback functions in a way similar to 2K's. Most sim gamers love the dropbacks in 2K including myself.

*sigh*

Go outside with a friend. Have him snap you the ball and then turn and try to throw it at a target. After 2 or 3 tries you will be able to do it almost every time. Now imagine you are an NFL QB who has practiced making that throw 1000 times.

The solution here is not to make the offense weaker, it is to make the defense stronger. The risk in pulling up and throwing instantly is not that you will be innacurate, it's that the defender is in zone and will jump the route and snatch the ball before the receiver can get there.

This is why the real-life play where QB's pull up and throw on a called running play is so dangerous. If the corner sees it coming, it's going the other way for 6.

[CapnKill]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Why wouldn't you just audible to the play you want? Audible to a quick slant and the dropback should change accordingly. I'm pretty sure that even in the past next gen Maddens, the drop-step varied according to what play was called. The timing wasn't where I wanted it to be in the past, but I thought there were different drop steps at least, no?

I honestly don't know. The drop backs were so out of synch with the rest of the game that I never really used them... I just did my own drop backs as I saw fit. I don't feel Madden has ever put proper emphasis on QB drop backs so its hard to even recall details about them.

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Please take no offense to this 'bro. But you're really thinking on one side of the ball.

No offense taken

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

You basically want to turn around and pass with no dropback and have a completely accurate throw, right?

I expect to have the option to snap, turn to WR and throw if I see the CB playing loose coverage. This happens every Sunday in the NFL, especially if you watch the Pats. Brady would hike, turn and fire a bullet to W. Welker even on a non-designed screen play. This type of play has no drop back at all, its simply hike the ball, pivot to face teh WR and then throw.... it happens very quickly and punishes teams that play the CB too loose at the line.

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Well, how unfair is that for the defense? What if the defensive pressure is forcing you to rush your throw but you're able to let off an accurate pass despite being rushed, you should still be rewarded?

I'm not talking about a rushed throw. I think if you are throwing off your back foot then you should be punished greatly in velocity and accuracy. The play I'm refering to does not deal with that, its simply a hike, pivot, set feet, throw with no drop back required.

I don't see how this puts the defense in a bad situation. If you play normal or BnR coverage on the WR this should be a very ill advised throw... the DB should have great position in either knocking it down, picking it off for 6 or more realisticly tackling the WR instantly after the catch...

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

I understand your gripe but you can't think of how it affects one side of the ball. To me, this dropback functions in a way similar to 2K's. Most sim gamers love the dropbacks in 2K including myself.

I don't think I'm thinking it form a one way perspective as you suggest. My thought process is simple. I see that it is done in the NFL a lot, and now I see a feature that would possibly prevent me from emulating what I see in the NFL a lot, which to me goes against the "If its in the game its in the game" motto.

If the defense and the game physics are programmed correctly this should not give the offense the advantage which you speak of. The defense SHOULD have all the tools necessary at their disposal to defend this type of "quick pass'.

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

But not at the expense of nullifying the defensive pressure...not in my opinion anyway. Madden has been geared to the offense for too long with the exception of the turnover issues in Madden 08.

I don't see how this nullifies defensive pressure. If I was blitzing I'd use BnR which would prevent this type of play, or if i was sending a zone blitz then I'd drop a d-lineman in coverage to cover the gap vacated by the LBer, which should result in an INT if I try the quick throw method that I discussed, only over the middle.

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

There were different dropbacks in our build varying by primary receiver. But again, hasn't it always been that way? I don't own a current copy of Madden so I can't check off-hand for you.

Good question, but like I said, drop backs were never in synch with the rest of the game (I understand taht they are resolving that now) so its not something I ever bothered to check. When you play 2k you realize pretty quickly that you better get in lin ewith proper NFL drop backs or else your screwed, but Madden never forced such a thing so I honestly don't know.

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Now while on the subject of dropbacks, I did encounter one issue and I hope that it's fixed ASAP. I already sent this to the dev team. When trying to execute a timing route, the QB sometimes came off his back foot even after completing his drop.

Good catch, I hope they'd fix that as well.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pnutt6

The reaction time of a human, and a video game character are very different. A human QB will never make a throw within 0.1 seconds of snapping the ball like you can in Madden. That is what I consider an "instant throw". It takes more time for the WR and QB to both see what the defense is doing and make that slight adjustment. Also, a QB will never hike the ball and run parallel with the LOS like I've seen in Madden. They will take a few steps back and rollout. To me, the forced drop back will make you take the initial steps without being able to do those things.

If you throw the ball that quickly then you don't know what you're getting. That's a CB/WR issue. An NFL QB could throw the ball instantly, but he's likely to get intercepted if the CB sees it. Make the CBs more aggressive.

As for parallel running, thats an OL/DL issue. You can't do it in real life because you're linemen would fall back on you, or a bull rushing DL would grab you. So fix the OL/DL interaction to make this happen.

Both of these solve the problem in a more realistic way than forced dropbacks.

[Pnutt6]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

If you throw the ball that quickly then you don't know what you're getting. That's a CB/WR issue. An NFL QB could throw the ball instantly, but he's likely to get intercepted if the CB sees it. Make the CBs more aggressive. As for parallel running, thats an OL/DL issue. You can't do it in real life because you're linemen would fall back on you, or a bull rushing DL would grab you. So fix the OL/DL interaction to make this happen. Both of these solve the problem in a more realistic way than forced dropbacks.

Both of these things do not happen in the NFL so making it so you cannot do them seems fine to me. To me it seems the forced drop back would elminate these things and I don't see it hindering or limiting the ability for the QB to move or make a quick throw.
None of us know how constraining the drop back will be and I don't think it will very constraining at all.

The forced dropback should only force the first two steps at most and will not make it impossible to throw a quick pass.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

*sigh*

LOL

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

The solution here is not to make the offense weaker, it is to make the defense stronger. The risk in pulling up and throwing instantly is not that you will be innacurate, it's that the defender is in zone and will jump the route and snatch the ball before the receiver can get there.

You're saying pretty much what I thought you were saying. You want to be able to pull out of your dropback and pass with no consequence. If the defense doesn't pick it off or swat it, it's a completed pass right? At what point does this become an exploit? I don't play online, but I can foresee the outcry of people not sticking to their dropbacks and letting off accurate passes all over the place (with no regard for passing off their backfoot).

CapnKill--I just checked the dropbacks in the Madden 09 demo and they do vary by play. I agree it's kind of hard to identify with the skiddish fast play of 09, but varying dropbacks are there. I popped in 2K5 where of course they emphasize the dropback and there were specific plays designed with no dropback (as you probably are well aware).

I think the benefits of a forced dropback far outweigh the benefits of not having one. If the only potential flaw in the system is that you can't pass out of your drop back willy nilly, I'll take that in exchange for more realism out of the QB position as a whole.

I guess we fundamentally see things different which is perfectly fine . Like me for example, I subscribe to the theory that receivers should not be reacting to passes thrown before they get into their route. If I'm sending the receiver on a post route and I cut off my drop-back and pass early, the ball should be well on its way before the receiver even expects it. The receiver should not be able to drop on a dime and make the play; they should expect for the ball to still be in my hands early into their route and almost always fail to make the play. Allowing the QB to break off the drop-back combined with the receivers making the goes against this theory IMO.

[CapnKill]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

LOL You're saying pretty much what I thought you were saying. You want to be able to pull out of your dropback and pass with no consequence. If the defense doesn't pick it off or swat it, it's a completed pass right? At what point does this become an exploit? I don't play online, but I can foresee the outcry of people not sticking to their dropbacks and letting off accurate passes all over the place (with no regard for passing off their backfoot). I think the benefits of a forced dropback far outweigh the benefits of not having one. If the only potential flaw in the system is that you can't pass out of your drop back willy nilly, I'll take that in exchange for more realism out of the QB position as a whole.

I'm pretty sure that's not what he is saying, and most definitely not what I'm saying.

He, or I.. .I'll just say "I" cause I don't want to speak for him... but I want the ability to throw WITHOUT drop back period.

1. Snap
2. Turn to WR
3. Throw

No drop back... so I don't expect to be able to throw mid drop back with no consquences... that's not what I'm saying at all, I expect to be able to snap, turn and throw to a WR at the LOS that is not covered by a DB... like if the DB is playing loose for example. This is done in the NFL every sunday and I expect to be able to do it in M10.

Thanks for checking on the Madden drop backs... did you try switching the primary WR (R2 + WR Icon) at the LOS to see if it changed your drop back?.. like see if you get a 5 or 7 step fo ra deep post and see if it changes for a WR on a screen or a short slant... If you have the time ..

Thanks again.

[Wet Bandit]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

If the defense doesn't pick it off or swat it, it's a completed pass right? At what point does this become an exploit?

An exploit? Throwing to an open receiver when he's open? If the defense isn't going to defend a receiver at the LOS, why can't I throw a good pass to him?

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

me for example, I subscribe to the theory that receivers should not be reacting to passes thrown before they get into their route.

I just don't understand why people think WRs go trotting around the field not looking for the ball when they're wide open. I can understand how a WR who's covered shouldn't turn and make a catch on a ball just before his out cut. But if he's running off the line of scrimmage and there's no one within 5-10 yards of him, do you honestly think he's not gonna look back at the QB in case the QB, like the WR, has noticed how wide open the throw is? Can you imagine that conversation in the huddle?

QB: Why didn't you look for the ball?
WR: I was told to run a 15-yard in. I was the fourth receiver on the play.
QB: There was no one within 8 yards of you. It was third-and-5.
WR: But I can't possibly catch the ball until you complete a drop and look through the other three receivers first! That's how it works!
QB: But you were wide open! For the first down!
WR: DROP! PROGRESSION!