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Old 04-21-2009, 08:17 AM   #145
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

Glad some guys stepped in this thread and see things the way I do. I thought it was only me for a second .

Again, the positives of a forced dropback far outweigh the negatives in my opinion. I personally hope that the break-off point is not too early after being tweaked (not that I play online or expect the CPU to do that, but still).
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:50 AM   #146
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shttymcgee
I'm just gonna play devil's advocate here. I actually come from a similar school of thought as you, but just wanted to put the other perspective out there.

Not all plays are designed with timing involved, and a whole system involves basically NO assigned patterns. Of course, I'm talking about the run and shoot, which Jim Schwartz has said the Lions will use this season, which of course hasn't gone unnoticed by NFL coaches.

The run and shoot is predicated upon receivers adjusting their routes on the fly, reacting to the different types of coverage/leverage a defense can employ. Of course, there are rules involved in each play which determines which routes each receiver can run, so its not just a free for all, but my point is that will not see a traditional 5 quick step drop thrown to a 12 yard speed out in this offense.

How should the run and shoot be incorporated into Madden, and remember that almost all madden players will have no real understanding of how the concepts work.
The Run N Shoot is a special case obviously, and really can't be modeled in a video game (atleast yet). With that said, it's still conceptually passing.

That is, each receiver is going to have an rough assignment.
Z.....T.G.C.G.T.....R...Y..X

In a "flood" concept, X is going to have a vertical, Y is going to have intermediate, R is going to have short. Now, X has the freedo to run the post/skinny/go/deep out based on alignments but his route is still based on the QB drop.

Y can run a Dig/Out/Curl, but it's based on coverage.

R has a hitch, bubble, out ect.. but i's based on the coverage and the drop.

Often, Floood is a roll concept so the QB has a lot of time to adjust. Also, the Run-N-Shoot runs a lot of 7 steps drops (which are all but extinct now).

Another concept would be a something along the lines of this:

R runs vertical (Post/Streak/Comeback based on coverage), Y runs vertical (Post/Streak/Flat/Comeback) and X runs a Dig/Comeback or possibly a post...agains all based on coverage.

X is still the primary receiver, the drop (5 step most likely for this concept...possibly 7) is tied to X. The play is designed to beat a Cover 2/4 defense for a gain of 12-20 yards. The QB is throwing off the alley defender's drop, and that is X's adjustment (Drop deep it's a curl, drop wide its the dig). If the Defense goes to Cover 3 at the snap it's 3 post patterns and the QB reads the playside saftey.

It's a sight adjusted route, but it is still tied to a drop and fits within a concept. They aren't adjusting from the dig or cul into a 2 yard hitch.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:29 AM   #147
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

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Originally Posted by Glorious Arc
Madden hasnt had a lob into the endzone. Thats my biggest pet peeve too because if i pick up a WR thats 6'7" 84 speed but great hands I want to just toss the ball up if there is a 5'10" CB on him. Currently in M09 its almost always a tip pass or a pick because the WR just sits there like a dummy.
Lol dude, a wr fade has NEVER been implemented in Madden properly. Playing with my Saints and having Marques Colston just looking at the ball and not even jumping over a 5'11 cb is frustrating to say the least. And to make matters worse, the cb will probably intercept it.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:39 AM   #148
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

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Originally Posted by adembroski
If it isn't within the framework of the play, sorry. If the QB didn't give a signal for the WR to change his route or it wasn't originally written in the play, yeah... the #4 receiver damn well better run his assigned route, regardless of where the defense his, because his route has a purpose.
Again, this assumes a whole lot about the offense in question. An "option route" offense does not require any "signal" from player to player. They must be on the same page based on what they read.

There is a truckload of assumption going on in this thread now, and most of it is pre-determining what someone else's coaching style may or may not dictate.

Assumption is the mother of all f*ckups.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:01 AM   #149
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

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Originally Posted by adembroski
If it isn't within the framework of the play, sorry. If the QB didn't give a signal for the WR to change his route or it wasn't originally written in the play, yeah... the #4 receiver damn well better run his assigned route, regardless of where the defense his, because his route has a purpose.
Let's look at an extreme example. Say the offense runs a no huddle and catches the defense off guard. At the snap, the Z receiver is uncovered. Let's say the QB didn't notice it before the snap because he was hurrying to get the snap off. But shortly after the snap, he looks to his right and notices no one covering the Z receiver. Now, according to you, if that receiver didn't get a signal from the QB before the play, he's not supposed to look at the QB, he's supposed to run his 10-yard out with his head down like a good little receiver, despite the fact that no one is covering him. How insane is that?

Look, I'm not saying a receiver should be changing his route whenever he wants. I'm not saying he should change a 10-yard out to a 5-yard in because it feels right. I'm saying that if he's open coming off the line of scrimmage, either because of a blitz or a defensive screw up or very loose coverage, he's probably going to look at the QB in case the ball comes his way right away.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:07 AM   #150
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

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Originally Posted by Wet Bandit
Want the drop to matter more? How about giving a big boost to accuracy is the ball is thrown at the end of the drop to your primary receiver. You could have an automatic, though not forced, drop based on the primary's route. If you throw to him at the right time at the end of your drop, boom, great, accurate pass.

But since you're not forced into that drop, you can improvise if you know your primary won't be open. You won't get the accuracy boost, but you also won't feel frustrated over the arbitrary lack of control.

That seems like a totally reasonable compromise between stressing the importance of a drop while also allowing the user to actual control the QB he's controlling.
Wanted to bring this up again, because it got zero discussion before. I see this as being a good, realistic compromise that helps alleviate the issues a forced drop tries to fix. Plus, it's generally more fun to be rewarded for doing something than to be punished for not doing something. It also teaches the action more effectively, the most positive reinforcement versus negative reinforcement deal.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:41 AM   #151
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

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Originally Posted by CapnKill
Broken Record here, but have you not seen plays in the real NFL where the QB snaps, turns and throws to a WR that has the DB playing too loose? That play has NO drop back what so ever...
I have to believe even those quick plays have at least a 1 step drop. Isn't the center's first step backward? If the QB doesn't clear the center, their feet get tangled up, even on quick passes. It may seem like an instantaneous throw because it's part of the same motion, but I've got to believe the QB's first move is to take a step back with their plant foot. I may be wrong but I would have to see it done to convince me.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:54 AM   #152
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Re: Forced 3 step drop? What is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgun styles
Again, this assumes a whole lot about the offense in question. An "option route" offense does not require any "signal" from player to player. They must be on the same page based on what they read.

There is a truckload of assumption going on in this thread now, and most of it is pre-determining what someone else's coaching style may or may not dictate.

Assumption is the mother of all f*ckups.
So, again,you are advocating that the QB should be allowed to change his drop and throw a route at any point, regardless of pass protection and pre-determined route.

The game already has option routes. The game has has routes. The game has audibles. What else do you need besides those tools?
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