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Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

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Old 04-22-2009, 07:47 PM   #25
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

Euphoria is technically just bio mechanical AI, which can be applied to blend traditional animation with the unpredictability of real world physical interaction. It's the same technology behind ragdoll basically, but the AI entity remains physical control, and attempt maximum self preservation (as in real life). Every animation has physical weight, so a Euphoria driven football player would be momentum dictated, be able to adjust tackles to dynamically grip the ball carrier according to the angle he approaches, and catches and fumbles would all be decided by physical properties.

To anyone with a little bit of computer know how, and physical/mathematical understanding, interesting in seeing how this works, should the Endorphin Learning Edition http://www.naturalmotion.com/downloads.htm
The is a preloaded scene with two animated football players, where you can adjust the angle, the magnitude, and the gravity force models interacting on the models. I found it all to be pretty cool, and personally feel the technology is the future behind all sports games, as it is improved.

Furthermore, animation can created do not have to be over the top, you can adjust friction, weight, and force to create some incredibly lifelike tackles. You can also edit animations, to add jumps, and make the tackler drive their feet, to add varied interaction.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:49 PM   #26
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennesseetitans
Euphoria is technically just bio mechanical AI, which can be applied to blend traditional animation with the unpredictability of real world physical interaction. It's the same technology behind ragdoll basically, but the AI entity remains physical control, and attempt maximum self preservation (as in real life). Every animation has physical weight, so a Euphoria driven football player would be momentum dictated, be able to adjust tackles to dynamically grip the ball carrier according to the angle he approaches, and catches and fumbles would all be decided by physical properties.

To anyone with a little bit of computer know how, and physical/mathematical understanding, interesting in seeing how this works, should the Endorphin Learning Edition http://www.naturalmotion.com/downloads.htm
The is a preloaded scene with two animated football players, where you can adjust the angle, the magnitude, and the gravity force models interacting on the models. I found it all to be pretty cool, and personally feel the technology is the future behind all sports games, as it is improved.

Furthermore, animation can created do not have to be over the top, you can adjust friction, weight, and force to create some incredibly lifelike tackles. You can also edit animations, to add jumps, and make the tackler drive their feet, to add varied interaction.
Ah there we go, great explanation!
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:55 PM   #27
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

Madden is attempting to reach similiar levels of interraction by procedural awareness and branching/dynamic animation. While it will never have the diversity or the physical integrity of a Euphoria based game, it can certainly make Madden a lot more dynamic and realistic, and I think this approach is probably the best way to progress towards the point where Euphoria or another such program can be implemented.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:22 PM   #28
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

Don't misunderstand me... real time physics probably are the future of sports games, and Madden will get there too... but I know that Ian has said he's not convinced the technology is there yet.

I think the question is not "Can the Madden engine handle Euphoria?", the question is "can modern consoles handle Madden with Euphoria?".

Remember; there was a non-real time version of Euphoria running in Madden 08, and it resulted in predictable, boring tackles. Theoretically, it could produce any tackle, but it resulted in the same thing everytime because it couldn't include the number of variables that exist in real life. Backbreaker is building it's entire game around this technology, so you have to expect they'll make some strides in this department.... but you have to ask how much they're going to be giving up for the sake of it.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:26 PM   #29
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

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Originally Posted by adembroski
Don't misunderstand me... real time physics probably are the future of sports games, and Madden will get there too... but I know that Ian has said he's not convinced the technology is there yet.

I think the question is not "Can the Madden engine handle Euphoria?", the question is "can modern consoles handle Madden with Euphoria?".

Remember; there was a non-real time version of Euphoria running in Madden 08, and it resulted in predictable, boring tackles. Theoretically, it could produce any tackle, but it resulted in the same thing everytime because it couldn't include the number of variables that exist in real life. Backbreaker is building it's entire game around this technology, so you have to expect they'll make some strides in this department.... but you have to ask how much they're going to be giving up for the sake of it.
Ding Ding Ding!!!! There you go people....If they do manage to apply that technology and make it work running at a smooth framerate, a lot of other things are going to be omitted.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:42 PM   #30
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

I don't think it's a matter of whether modern consoles can handle Euphoria in a football game. The multicore processors have hardly been tapped. GTA IV implemented it rather well for all of its movements, within a dynamic, extensive 3D world (not quite the same as Madden, but I'll get there later).

That said, I think it's a more a matter of how much time and effort a developer is willing to put towards its implementation, and whether the effort will reap substantial immediate results. This is not a put down towards the Madden team. I think they are certainly making their extremely limited development cycle worthwhile. And as far as function, I've already said that Madden can and is essentially imitating Euphoria's functions (just with less physical fidelity). If Backbreaker proves revolutionary, I certainly don't think Madden will be at all obsolete.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Backbreaker has been in development for 2-3 years. It is obvious this technology cannot be implemented overnight, and it remains to be seen how well the initial version will work. However, I don't think they'll be giving up much as far as graphically, since its engine can render higher graphical fidelity (not the same as how good it will look or art direction). Where it may be lacking, is depth, realism, and overall football A.I.

Last edited by tennesseetitans; 04-22-2009 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:59 PM   #31
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennesseetitans
I don't think it's a matter of whether modern consoles can handle Euphoria in a football game. The multicore processors have hardly been tapped. GTA IV implemented it rather well for all of its movements, within a dynamic, extensive 3D world (not quite the same as Madden, but I'll get there later).

That said, I think it's a more a matter of how much time and effort a developer is willing to put towards its implementation, and whether the effort will reap substantial immediate results. This is not a put down towards the Madden team. I think they are certainly making their extremely limited development cycle worthwhile. And as far as function, I've already said that Madden can and is essentially imitating Euphoria's functions (just with less physical fidelity). If Backbreaker proves revolutionary, I certainly don't think Madden will be at all obsolete.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Backbreaker has been in development for 2-3 years. It is obviously this technology cannot be implemented overnight, and it remains to be seen how well the initial version will work. However, I don't think they'll be giving up much as far as graphically, since its engine can render higher graphical fidelity (not the same as how good it will look or art direction). Where it may be lacking, is depth, realism, and overall football A.I.
That's the other obstacle... can Madden get it in as completely as Backbreaker in one season when they're contractually obligated to produce a game every 12 months?
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:04 PM   #32
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Re: Whats the difference between all of the different physics engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
That's the other obstacle... can Madden get it in as completely as Backbreaker in one season when they're contractually obligated to produce a game every 12 months?
A lot of people think Backbreaker is nothing but an advertisement for the technology, and I'm inclined to agree that is a major motivation. I think if it's revolutionary enough, Madden could very well license their engine, and tune it to fit their style of play (implementation will be a lot easier once it has been done). That said, I'd still think that process (and I don't know anything about development) would take at least 2 development cycles.
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