Problem in Every Defense

[Droopy03]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

From our playbook folks: "It’s in and ready to go. After our next export the middle linebacker in the 4-3 and the two inside linebackers in the 3-4 are now a yard deeper. We’re also looking into the 3-4 OLB’s wrong foot issue."

Can we eally focus on the 3-4 defense you know make the depth chat read different. The Middle linbackers should be WILB and SILB and the Defense tackle should be a NT and the end should be as LDT and RDT. but all this is not going to matte if thee are no double teams.

[wco81]

Philly was playing with their LBs in the gaps presnap virtually the whole game at San Francisco last year.

In some situations, blitz is the base defense.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Errr, uhm, I don't know how I feel about the LB depth. Often they do play deeper (5 yards) against zone teams and certain types of attacks. However, against a more "power" team they usually step up. Likewise, often the OLB will stand at 4 yards, but the Mike deepens to 5. It really depends on how the offense plans to attack or the LB's assignments. What I'm concerned about is dives and Iso becoming extremely effective because the LB is too late filling. 3rd and 1 automatic 1 yard gains just because the LB is too far back. On the flip side, it should help with the constant outside runs and, hopefully, the lineman won't "lose" the LB in the crowd so easily when they are "hiding" behind players. In conclusion, I have no idea what the point of this post was...but there is one...somewhere...I think.

What I'm really getting at is this. Take a look at the Chargers under Phillips. The Cowboys run this exact same thing



Let's look at some more video




Video 3
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...nts-highlights

Notice the alignment of the Inside Backers. (1st and 10 vs I Form) Video 1 you have Godfrey at aroun 4.5 yards deep and you have Edwards at around 6 almost 7 yards deep.

(3rd and 10 vs I form) Video 2 you have Lewis at 5 yards deep, Scott moves off the line and backs up to 5 yds deep.

Video 3: Notice where Lewis is at the 00:15 second mark. He's aligned 5 yards deep. Next play 00:28 seconds, Lewis is 5 yards deep, Scott is 6 yards deep. Notice how they read step and then run down hill quickly. Yeah I know the Giants beat them this game, but that's not the point. Next play, even on the goal line, look how deep they are so they can charge forward. 1:00 mark, look at Lewis and Griesen, both are 6 yards deep. 1:20 mark, Lewis is 6 yards deep.

Side note: If you study this videos carefully you will see two of the fronts I asked for (not sure we will get them though)

I'm asking for the LB's to be backed up for a few reasons:

1) so that the ILB's and MLB can take their read step, come down hill and still be able to turn their hips and drop to zone if it is a play action. The way they are lined up now they cannot do that. They will get sucked in.

2) Right now, to me the A.I backers play slow and to me part of the perception of them playing slow is they are too close to the line. In Madden you will see them take a read step then sorta just stand in the spot and wait until the ball is handed off or see if it is a PA pass. If they back them up, I think they can get them to take that read step and keep moving without compromising the ability to turn their hips and get back at the even of a PA pass. It also allows them to come down hill at with force without compromising that. If they mimic the play in this video and stop having the backers play slow, there should be no concern about dives and Iso's. The problem is the backers run defense is too strongly tied to the play you call.

If you pick up any book on defenses whether it be any of Leo Hands 101 books (101 46 Bear Stunts, 101 Weak Eagle Stunts, 101 4-3 Stunts, 101 3-4 Stunts, 101 Double Eagle Flex Stunts, 101 Fire Zone Blitzes), Jim Schwart's book on Fire Zone Blitzes, or any videos like Coaching the 4-3 Defense, 46 Bear Defense with Rex Ryan, 3-4 okie defense ect in the default alignment nobody has their ILB's and MLB up there within 4 yards. Most of them are gonna have their ILB's and MLB at 5 yards minimum in their default alignment. Everything else works off the default. But now you do have a very important point on 3rd and 1's of course. On these downs we wouldn't want our backers back that far. But I guess the issue is how do we negotiate their alignment depth.

I think EA and 2k have the Inside backers and Middle backers way to close. As a result you don't get them being able to take a read step, come down hill while reading keys and being able to turn their hips if it is a PA. There is very little lateral movement too. No scraping. Too much standing still while reading. They should be moving while reading. But if you are too close to the line you have no room to move while reading.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by wco81

Philly was playing with their LBs in the gaps presnap virtually the whole game at San Francisco last year. In some situations, blitz is the base defense.

This is true. Philly sends a lot of blitzes, run or pass. But most teams don't do that and even Philly didn't do that against everyone.

[LBzrule]

Quote:

From our playbook folks: "It’s in and ready to go. After our next export the middle linebacker in the 4-3 and the two inside linebackers in the 3-4 are now a yard deeper. We’re also looking into the 3-4 OLB’s wrong foot issue.

[djKianoosh]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

What I'm really getting at is this. Take a look at the Chargers under Phillips. The Cowboys run this exact same thing Let's look at some more video Video 3 http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...nts-highlights Notice the alignment of the Inside Backers. (1st and 10 vs I Form) Video 1 you have Godfrey at aroun 4.5 yards deep and you have Edwards at around 6 almost 7 yards deep. (3rd and 10 vs I form) Video 2 you have Lewis at 5 yards deep, Scott moves off the line and backs up to 5 yds deep. Video 3: Notice where Lewis is at the 00:15 second mark. He's aligned 5 yards deep. Next play 00:28 seconds, Lewis is 5 yards deep, Scott is 6 yards deep. Notice how they read step and then run down hill quickly. Yeah I know the Giants beat them this game, but that's not the point. Next play, even on the goal line, look how deep they are so they can charge forward. 1:00 mark, look at Lewis and Griesen, both are 6 yards deep. 1:20 mark, Lewis is 6 yards deep. Side note: If you study this videos carefully you will see two of the fronts I asked for (not sure we will get them though) I'm asking for the LB's to be backed up for a few reasons: 1) so that the ILB's and MLB can take their read step, come down hill and still be able to turn their hips and drop to zone if it is a play action. The way they are lined up now they cannot do that. They will get sucked in. 2) Right now, to me the A.I backers play slow and to me part of the perception of them playing slow is they are too close to the line. In Madden you will see them take a read step then sorta just stand in the spot and wait until the ball is handed off or see if it is a PA pass. If they back them up, I think they can get them to take that read step and keep moving without compromising the ability to turn their hips and get back at the even of a PA pass. It also allows them to come down hill at with force without compromising that. If they mimic the play in this video and stop having the backers play slow, there should be no concern about dives and Iso's. The problem is the backers run defense is too strongly tied to the play you call. If you pick up any book on defenses whether it be any of Leo Hands 101 books (101 46 Bear Stunts, 101 Weak Eagle Stunts, 101 4-3 Stunts, 101 3-4 Stunts, 101 Double Eagle Flex Stunts, 101 Fire Zone Blitzes), Jim Schwart's book on Fire Zone Blitzes, or any videos like Coaching the 4-3 Defense, 46 Bear Defense with Rex Ryan, 3-4 okie defense ect in the default alignment nobody has their ILB's and MLB up there within 4 yards. Most of them are gonna have their ILB's and MLB at 5 yards minimum in their default alignment. Everything else works off the default. But now you do have a very important point on 3rd and 1's of course. On these downs we wouldn't want our backers back that far. But I guess the issue is how do we negotiate their alignment depth. I think EA and 2k have the Inside backers and Middle backers way to close. As a result you don't get them being able to take a read step, come down hill while reading keys and being able to turn their hips if it is a PA. There is very little lateral movement too. No scraping. Too much standing still while reading. They should be moving while reading. But if you are too close to the line you have no room to move while reading.

great stuff man! love this kind of detailed info.

I think the problem that would arise in the video game when implementing this would be that the QB can fire off a blazingly quick pass to the TE or slot WR. this is a video game problem, not a football problem. if they accurately blended the animations from right after the snap so that the QB truly does have to go through a proper throwing motion (even if it's a super quick, 0-step drop) that would eliminate that quick throw glitchiness. then that would help.

i'm just looking at it from the perspective of avoiding glitchy/cheesy stuff. that quick throw would be my first concern if the LB's aren't reacting properly. i'm not saying it should never happen, i'm just saying that in '09 the QB sometimes throws way too quickly after the snap.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by tonynyy

Here are some pre-snap control ideas: Defensive hot-routes: Get rid of tapping the A button, it wastes time. RS down: Blitz (maybe you could hold it down and use the LS to pick a gap) RS down a second time: Delayed blitz (same gap concept as above) RS up: Hook zone RS up a second time: Deep zone (should alter other deep zones as well, so if you do this with a LB with one safety in Cover 1, it becomes Cover 2) RS right: Flat zone RS right a second time: Whatever the purple zone is RS left: QB spy Did I miss any? D-Line audibles: LB + LS down: D-Line pinch LB + LS up: D-Line spread LB + LS right/left: D-Line shift left/right LB + RS down: D-line crash middle (pinch) LB + RS up: D-Line fan (no going horizontal at the snap though) LB + RS right/left: D-line crash left/right LB + D-Pad down: DT stunt (in a 4-3) LB + D-Pad up: DEs loop inside LB + D-Pad right/left: DT/DE stunt right/left LB audibles: RB + LS down: LB stack RB + LS up: LB spread RB + LS right/left: LB shift over/under RB + RS down: Blitz all LBs RB + RS up: Call off all LB blitzes and switch to hook zones RB + RS right/left: Blitz OLB right/left RB + D-Pad down: Show blitz (A gaps) RB + D-Pad up: Show blitz (outsides) RB + D-Pad right/left: Show blitz right/left Coverage audibles: Y + LS down: Bump n' run Y + LS up: Off coverage Y+ LS right/left: Shade receivers inside/outside (ala APF) Y + RS down: Roll zones to the middle of the field Y + RS up: Roll zones to the sidelines Y + RS right/left: Roll zones to the right/left Y + D-Pad down (tap): Cover 1 shell Y + D-Pad down (hold): Cover 0 shell Y + D-Pad up (tap): Cover 2 shell Y + D-Pad up (hold): Cover 4 shell (4 across mentioned by adembroski) Y + D-Pad right/left (tap): Cover 3 strong/weak (safety rolled up) Y + D-Pad right/left (hold): Cover 3 with rolled safeties (corner stays up on the receiver) Y + receiver icon + LS: individual DB adjustments for man coverage (bump, off, shade inside/outside) Team blitz controls: (With an auto-motion play selected, they need to be added) D-Pad down: Start auto-motion D-Pad up: Cancel auto-motion D-Pad right/left: Fake auto-motion for a different play (maybe we could select these pre-play) Hopefully I can get some feedback, this took way too long.

Yes plzkthx

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by djKianoosh

great stuff man! love this kind of detailed info. I think the problem that would arise in the video game when implementing this would be that the QB can fire off a blazingly quick pass to the TE or slot WR. this is a video game problem, not a football problem. if they accurately blended the animations from right after the snap so that the QB truly does have to go through a proper throwing motion (even if it's a super quick, 0-step drop) that would eliminate that quick throw glitchiness. then that would help. i'm just looking at it from the perspective of avoiding glitchy/cheesy stuff. that quick throw would be my first concern if the LB's aren't reacting properly. i'm not saying it should never happen, i'm just saying that in '09 the QB sometimes throws way too quickly after the snap.

That's why I didn't have a problem with forced drop backs. With forced drop backs you wouldn't be able to do what you just described. Even if the branching out point is at the 3 step mark you still wouldn't be able to exploit that. The quick throw is not a concern unless they change the branching out point of the QB drop back to 1 step IMO. Secondly if the linebackers react right and if PA really works with WR's, unless the Route of the TE is that quick, there should be no way that he's even looking for the pass.