Lets Dialouge - Ian's gangtackling challenge revisited

[dbgameover]

lb can you enlighten us on how much the 3-4 man group tackle happens i hope it dose not happen like every other play unless its the colts or bears teams that specifically want this to happen so they can strip the ball i don't want to see people like Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis just standing people up for clean ups they are the clean up lol

this is another thing that should be team specific yes all teams gang tackles yet teams teach diffrent things Rex Ryans all ways talk knock the crap out of the guy (if you get the chance). while Ron Riveara line backers are known for there passive tackling and trying to strip the ball (hope theres gang strip tackle animations) .

also they need to have people shotting lanes more than pursuing specifically behind the line i want to see a good outside line backer read step then shoot in to a b gap forcing the running back in to a linebacker or defensive end (specifically on zone plays)

[jp7588]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Backbreaker. Have you not seen the new vids? Pro-Tak, while innovative, is obsolete as a stand alone tackling engine before it has even been released. I will say this though: Pro-Tak COMBINED with Natural Motion will fix the problems of both. Pro-Tak has alot of potential as AI, since it focuses on tackling angles and the like which are needed to improve Natural Motion.

I'd say it's a little premature to say that the Euphoria engine has usurped mo-cap as the preeminent animation technology in football gaming seeing as how the number of football games released utilizing said technology range between zero and... uh... zero.

Euphoria is more than ragdoll physics but what we've seen so far with Backbreaker doesn't amount to much more than that. Projectile missile defenders colliding with the ball carrier creating unique flips and twists and body contortions. It's cool, in the same way the game Pain for the PS3 is cool. What we've seen so far from Backbreaker is far from indicative from what we see in the NFL, and until I see it succesfully applied in a football simulation environment I'm not going to give it anymore credit than it deserves.

[viewtifuljoe71]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

As far as sheer numbers Pro Tak puts 2k to rest. As far as possibilities it also puts it to rest. There are possibilities for: pile ups, the real life Steve Smith run breaking out of a slew of defenders; stale mates between the ball carrier and multiple defenders. So what you have here is a piece of tech that gives you everything that 2k5 had and more. Now the issue is cosmetics. What you guys are talking about is cosmetic (how it looks), but the tech itself has surpassed what 2k5 had. To me this is where I'm not sure I like the really slow game speed. It makes the tackling look like guys are being "careful," rather than being violent. I think if they can give it a more hectic and chaotic look when they tune the hell out of it, the technology will shine even more.

I agree, the vids look like the players are running up and just latching on instead of flying into the ball carrier.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by jp7588

I'd say it's a little premature to say that the Euphoria engine has usurped mo-cap as the preeminent animation technology in football gaming seeing as how the number of football games released utilizing said technology range between zero and... uh... zero. Euphoria is more than ragdoll physics but what we've seen so far with Backbreaker doesn't amount to much more than that. Projectile missile defenders colliding with the ball carrier creating unique flips and twists and body contortions. It's cool, in the same way the game Pain for the PS3 is cool. What we've seen so far from Backbreaker is far from indicative from what we see in the NFL, and until I see it succesfully applied in a football simulation environment I'm not going to give it anymore credit than it deserves.

Watch this vid...


http://www.walsh-designs.com/bfl/ps3...s/GEDC1872.MOV

The running back in black gets hit by MULTIPLE TACKLERS, stumbles, breaks away, puts a hand down to regain his footing, starts to run again and is tackled at the sideline. In Madden this would take 3 or 4 separate jerky animations/transitions to make happen, Euphoria does it all seamlessly in one fluid sequence of motions.

Stated simply: Euphoria can do what Pro-Tak does, Pro-Tak cannot do what Euphoria does.

[Valdarez]

The main issue with the new ProTak is that there's still no feel of momentum in the game. I have no idea how backbreaker will play, but those videos are just down right awesome. You can see the player's momentum and their impact on the tackle each and every time. In the gang tackle examples so far, it's like the guys just stop, hug, and tap their feet till the runner falls down. On paper, the procedural tackling sounds like a really good idea, I just haven't seen video evidence where it looks good from a tackling perspective or realistic from a momentum perspective.

[jp7588]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Watch this vid... http://www.walsh-designs.com/bfl/ps3...s/GEDC1872.MOV The running back in black gets hit by MULTIPLE TACKLERS, stumbles, breaks away, puts a hand down to regain his footing, starts to run again and is tackled at the sideline. In Madden this would take 3 or 4 separate jerky animations/transitions to make happen, Euphoria does it all seamlessly in one fluid sequence of motions. Stated simply: Euphoria can do what Pro-Tak does, Pro-Tak cannot do what Euphoria does.

I can't get the video to work it sounds like something I haven't seen before.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

The main issue with the new ProTak is that there's still no feel of momentum in the game. I have no idea how backbreaker will play, but those videos are just down right awesome. You can see the player's momentum and their impact on the tackle each and every time. In the gang tackle examples so far, it's like the guys just stop, hug, and tap their feet till the runner falls down. On paper, the procedural tackling sounds like a really good idea, I just haven't seen video evidence where it looks good from a tackling perspective or realistic from a momentum perspective.

You're right and here's why:

Natural Motion was designed to simulate physical motion/momentum.

Pro-Tak was designed to produce a realistic looking result.

Because the function of Natural Motion simulates real tackling, the results are very realistic. Pro-Tak can get close, but it ultimately fails to feel real because it is pretending to do what Natural Motion actually does.

To use a military analogy: The Marines claim to be America's elite fighting force. However it is the US Army's 75th Ranger Regiment that actually is all the things that the Marines claim to be. Most Marines are clerks, drivers, supply specialists, cooks, and communication specialists. Not elite fighters.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by dbgameover

lb can you enlighten us on how much the 3-4 man group tackle happens i hope it dose not happen like every other play unless its the colts or bears teams that specifically want this to happen so they can strip the ball i don't want to see people like Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis just standing people up for clean ups they are the clean up lol this is another thing that should be team specific yes all teams gang tackles yet teams teach diffrent things Rex Ryans all ways talk knock the crap out of the guy (if you get the chance). while Ron Riveara line backers are known for there passive tackling and trying to strip the ball (hope theres gang strip tackle animations) . also they need to have people shotting lanes more than pursuing specifically behind the line i want to see a good outside line backer read step then shoot in to a b gap forcing the running back in to a linebacker or defensive end (specifically on zone plays)

There are still a lot of 1 on 1 tackles, 2 on 1. I had several game changing hits with Lewis alone so I think guys just need to relax a little bit and realize Pro-Tak is being touted in presentation form. If you are giving a presentation you focus on what the presentation is about.

As for the LB logic, it needs some work not sure how much it will get. But they should address the obvious problems from the CD build. I want some new defenses, but we'll see.