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OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

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Old 05-15-2009, 10:47 AM   #1
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OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

I want to revisit this again. I know Ian and company are working to get the pocket to set up faster. But I want to compare some videos at this point and hopefully get a discussion going. I'm going to use my old All Pro videos and I'm going to compare them to the latest Madden Pass Blocking video. Let's look at all three videos.

All Pro Video 1



All Pro Video 2


Now let's look at the latest Madden Pass Blocking video.



After considering all three videos I want to talk about them with reference to technique and with reference to cheese QB tactics.

All Pro Video 1 - Play 1 - In this first play Simmons uses a violent rip move to the inside and beats his man. Normally in All Pro if this happened your QB was a dead duck. The problem however was consistency. Of course you shouldn't expect for this to happen all the time. I know the knock on All Pro is long animations, but it appears here that there is a very quick branch point and the animation is not long at all.

Play 2 - On the second play Manley uses the head slap to beat his man. I know this looks bad from the offenses perspective. It's as if the Tackle does not even give any effort.

Play 3 - Last play the pocket sets up with both Manley and Simmons running the arc and fighting to the QB. To me it sets up too slow. But at the same time, the ends are running wide enough to where if the offensive player scrambles backwards the Ends will not engage the Tackles. They will just keep running up the field after the QB.

All Pro Video 2

Play 1 - On the first run through, Bethea basically beats the man much like Manley does from the first video, except his move is to the inside. I think the key thing here that I like is Bethea does not engage this man and then proceed to do a move. It's one continuous motion. Bezo I remember you talking about this at CD. There needs to be times where you do not have to engage to do a move on a guy. He gets through the block attempt and gets the sack. This happens quickly (when it happens) so there is no chance for a cheeser to escape this.

Rewind with Focus on Too Tall Jones Here is perhaps for me the biggest point of emphasis. Jones does exactly what we really need our DE's to do and that is run the arc. He runs the loop and then he turns, attempts to dip his shoulder and get under the Tackle, then he simply rides him to the QB. Also notice where Jones is positioned on the field when the QB finishes his drop and this is even from the shotgun. He is approximately one yard from the QB as he bounces off of his heels. About the only thing I do not like about Jones here is he stands up and runs rather than staying low out of his stance. But other than that I think he does it perfectly.

Madden 10 Pass Blocking Video

Play 1 Trevor Pryce does a great job of getting off the block and maintaining containment, but he really does not run the arc.

Play 2 Ngata does a great job of keep the outside arm free, and keeping the blocker from steering him inside. But again, like Pryce, he really does not run the arc. Also the QB finishes his drop well before Ngata is 1 yard away from him. Of course Ngata is a slower player.

Play 3 Spears does a pretty good job. He does not run the arc, but he does manage to get the tackle to ride him outside. But again, the QB is finished with his drop long before Spears is 1 yard close to him. Spears does an excellent job of hand fighting and making his way to the QB though.

Play 4 Spears again. Early engagement but keeps outside containment. Actually this is excellent blocking by Willie Anderson that the QB sorta negates.

After looking at all three videos here are some things I would like to see in Madden 10. First, have it at times where Dlinemen do not engage at all, but they have a continuous motion with their move and just whip the Olineman. If you have a stud DE/OLB and he's going up against a Tackle with low pass block rating then this should happen at least 5 times a game. Just have him whip that man with a move without engaging like Bethea and Manley do in the first two videos.

Second, I'd like to see the DE's and OLB's run the arc like Too Tall Jones does in the 2nd video, but stay lower as they come up the field. Make sure their placement on the field is 1 yard from the QB as the QB bounces off his heels.

Third, Consistency against lower rated players. I'd like to see more consistency with defenders beating their men against lower rated pass blocking offensive linemen. On the flip side if the defender is not that great I'd still like to see him run the arc like Jones, but be held at bay.

Points of emphasis:

Arc Running - Jones = Ideal
Consistency against Low rated Pass Blockers - Bethea and No Engage = ideal
Low Rated Defenders - arc run like Jones, but held at bay by tackles.
Placement of defenders when running the arc - 1 yard from QB as he pops off heels - Jones = Ideal.
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:16 AM   #2
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Re: OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

good job LB, completely agree here ....especially DE's running the arc.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:02 PM   #3
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Re: OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

They need to make the de's and olbs have a pre determned spot to rush to instead of the an because their. Angles get messed up if the qb doesn't follow his drop. And you're right about engaging tackles, some defensive ends and lbs dip under the tackle and aren't even touched.

I'm glad your very passionate about creating the perfect pocket
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:04 PM   #4
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Re: OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

LB, you have a 4-3 de vs 3-4 de. They dont do the same thing. it sucks the ea dont have any vids of a 3-4 olb rushing the passer, then it will show more of what your talking about.

can you show a 4-3 zone blitz, when a de drop into zone, and the dt has to rush and stay outside? From APF2k i dont have that game, and want to see what the dt will do.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:22 PM   #5
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Re: OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

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Originally Posted by TyghtWork
LB, you have a 4-3 de vs 3-4 de. They dont do the same thing. it sucks the ea dont have any vids of a 3-4 olb rushing the passer, then it will show more of what your talking about.

can you show a 4-3 zone blitz, when a de drop into zone, and the dt has to rush and stay outside? From APF2k i dont have that game, and want to see what the dt will do.

While that is the case, all the videos have the defenses in the Nickel so they are coming from the same spot, so I'd expect the same behavior in terms of the arc. In the Madden videos, the QB is out of his drop well ahead of time and can actually move earlier than they move in the video. I did this at CD and got outside. The DE chased me but I got outside nonetheless and got some passes off. Most of them were overthrown. But I want a fierce pass rush from certain guys. I want some guys to not even engage and beat the man with a move if the ratings call for it.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:24 PM   #6
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Re: OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

Quote:
Originally Posted by TyghtWork
LB, you have a 4-3 de vs 3-4 de. They dont do the same thing. it sucks the ea dont have any vids of a 3-4 olb rushing the passer, then it will show more of what your talking about.

can you show a 4-3 zone blitz, when a de drop into zone, and the dt has to rush and stay outside? From APF2k i dont have that game, and want to see what the dt will do.
Unfortunately I can't do it right now because I don't have an Xbox.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:30 PM   #7
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Re: OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

Quote:
The decrease in overall speed should lend itself to the new pocket presence feature that EA Sports is trying to push. But honestly, I didn't feel it much in my demo with a pre-beta build. I was able to still hold back on the left stick and run away from my offensive line before flinging a pass thirty yards to a receiver. I never got sacked and rarely felt pressure from the outside like the new pocket design intends. When I did feel pressure the controller rumbled to let me know that defenders were breathing down my neck. On a few occurrences they even got close enough to force a duck pass rather than a perfect spiral like you would've seen in previous years.
- IGN Hands On 5/15/2009

See this is why. I did the same thing in the CD build. While most of my passes were incomplete, had the pocket set up faster none of this transpires.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:53 PM   #8
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Re: OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

This is a fundamental aspect that through their acknowledgement of tweaking, I expect to see what you are discussing in the game. No real excuse as to why not in my opinion. I'd much rather have a good outside presence be forced to chipping and sliding our OL protection (if madden has that I don't remember) than the semblence of a pocket but no real function to it.

BTW I saw your videos of old 2k games.. makes me wish I played those more.... I was kind of young though. Pre snap movement and the DB coverage is very cool.
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