Is the creater of the Wildcat a cheeser?

[kjcheezhead]

I am one of those guys that is very much in favor of the create a playbook. I see Miami running the wildcat and want to be the designer of the next innovation on offense or defense. But what I hear the most is concerns that this feature will open up the doors to ultimate cheese. So my question to the forum is what is cheese and what is strategy?

We all know about the Madden 09 cheese plays. The Fb dive which supposedly was addressed with a new handoff animation. The qb walk in which I am praying is corrected. Running an entire quarter of game in 7 plays....and then a lot of guys mention the hb toss and this is where I part ways.

The reason being is that I think the hb toss was able to be countered. If you used a 3-4 base and rushed the olbs they could get in and push the hb to the sidelines a fair amount of the time. If it is true that size and weight are much more true to life in this version than this play is that much more stoppable.

So what do you guys think, is the hb toss a true cheese play? Will it still be cheese in Madden 10 when size/weight make more of a factor? When does strategy stop and cheese begin? Doesnt having a place where we or madden websites can go to design counters to the cheese sound like a good idea?

[PantherBeast_OS]

Well the thing is if Ian was to allow create a play in madden. If should remain for offline use only. So that way people would not complain bout other people cheating with create plays. So the only thing that can be used online is default playbooks already installed onto the game. BTW there will be ways of stopping the wildcat plays. I think Ian has already confirmed that in a post sometime ago. But I am sure Ian would not allow a play like the wildcat foramtion into the game unless there was defensive plays toslow it down are stop it all together.

[Maelstrom-XIII]

I fail to see how the topic of the thread (ie Wildcat inventor a cheeser?) corresponds to your question of a HB toss being a cheese play...

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by Maelstrom-XIII

I fail to see how the topic of the thread (ie Wildcat inventor a cheeser?) corresponds to your question of a HB toss being a cheese play...

It wasnt well written I guess but my point is that Wildcat is something the NFL had never seen. Creating plays that your friends have never seen would be the same thing IMO, but a lot of the Madden community says it amounts to cheese.

[Skyboxer]

As long as it doesn't exploit a flaw or glitch in the game, create away IMO. One of the best things about Front page Sports Football and playing with a great group of guys.

[Netherscourge]

As far as I'm concerned, any formation that is within the rules is legal and is not cheesing.

Peopel cried about the "trap" defense in the NHL for years - it helped the Devils win a couple Cups.

Guess what? It was 100% legal and it worked.

So the NHL decided one day that it made the baby Jesus cry too much and they changed the rules so it couldn't be used anymore.


The only way you can get rid of the wildcat is by changing the rules of the game - which, IMO is stupid.

How about you get a NEW defensive coordinator who isn't afraid to alter his thinking to counter the wildcat?

Buddy Ryan's 46 defense forced teams to go to the West Coast offense to counter all the defenders up on the line and blitzing from any position.

Well, the Wildcat is simply another challenge for coordinator's to counter.

(Psst - I bet the 46 Defense could come in handy against the Wildcat...)


As far as Madden goes, it's up to the developers to make sure their Defense AI isn't stupid enough to chase the wrong players and not to abandon other players who are still options while they are behind the line of scrimmage.

[TyghtWork]

All plays are chesse if you cant stop them. Thats what im getting from alot of ppl here. Ppl like to do what they like to do. Then when they play someone, thats stopping it. They cant do anything, so they cry cheese. If We spend more time getting to know the playbooks, and less saying cheese. It would be a lot less cheese plays. 98% of the plays can be stopped, but you have to use players you dont use. Get off a dlinemen, and use a lb or db.

To me cheese is a playing style. Find a glitch in the game and use it all game. Doing things in a game that could never happen. A de playing deep 3rd. Stopping a power running team, using 7 dbs. We all find money plays, but to use it 8 out of 10 times(is very sad). Then when they run up on someone that could stop it, they quit the game. Or glitch to get out of the game. That to me is cheese.

[PGaither84]

I think the first issue is your deffinition of cheese. My impression is that you are confusing cheese and cheating. The WR direct snap, the QB walk, and the "make it rain" catch are examples of cheating. Nano blitzes are cheating. Cheese, as defined by most, is when you do things to exploit the video game and the AI to do things that give you a specific advantage that is not stratigic.

A favorite example of mine is between 08 and 09. On next Gen madden untill 09, the slide protection feature was absent. So, in Madden 08 when I played online early and often I found players who would come out in a quarter defense with a MLB blitz. They then take the D-Line nad pinch them by pressing LT+down on the left stick and then "crash" the line by pressing LT+down on the right stick, then tell the MLB to line up tight on the line by pressing RT+down on the left stick or manually doing it. so what we have now is 3 defensive linemen lined up over the center and two guards and the MLB as a 4th defender. All 4 defensive players are attacking the middle hard where the O-line has only 3 blockers. Simple math tells you that someone is going in unblocked and gets imidiate pressure on QBs. The only answer in 08 was to send a WR or someone else in motion to stutter the free player.

These palyers would call this a legit NFL stratagy even though NONE of them could give me one team who does this, let alone does this every play like they do. The real solution, the real life solution is to simply have the O-line adjust and "slide protection pinch." In 09 with Slide protection in, early on in the first day and few weeks players that are hold overs from 08 were doing this left and right and i would just call slide protect and... no penetration. Yes, my FIVE linemen would block the 4 blitzers and give my room to run off tackle and pass and everything else. Oh, the sound of them crying and complaining how it was "B.S." that their "legit stratagy" was "taken away" by EA and on and on. These same palyers who like to call people bums for not being ableto stop their cheese in 08 were left defenseless [litterally] in 09 becasue that cheese was countered with a realistic tool that was long overdue in next gen.

Cheese is often when an otherwise realistic stratagy is used and abused by a player that has no honest counter or negative reprocusions in the game. The Rocket Catch is the white elephant in the room that has a lot of people up in arms. In short, my opinion is that the super spin of WRs is unsim, and how poorly defenders play the ball in 04-09 are a large reason why the RC is allowed to be so effective. In real life we see players like Randy Moss and Larry fit able to make these gret catches, but even they only rarely do it. In Madden the RC can be done by any player and with success and on a regular basis. recivers with low spectacular catch should be droping these passes, defenders should be attacking these plays realitically, and the slow down and better player momentum should help prevent the WR instantly stoping like the rod runner and turning around to make the play on the ball.

The FB dive was too good because of the sped-up animation of the QB and no initial step by the Fb like in real life. The FB would get the ball and be at the LOS whiel players are just getting out of their stance.

Even the HB toss has merrit because of the extreme amount of comitment you have to have defensively to contain it that you are very weak to the play action. No one run play should be so effective that you have to over commit the d to stop it. However, a player should be so good you would have to. If AP or LT are running the Toss for big gains, I'm fine. When my backup running back is killing you with it and you are blitzing the corners and manually running me down with your MLB... there is a problem.

To further answer your question, the prolem comes here: untill the game and AI are able to recreate an authentic NFL experiance, then anything that players do, and do consistantly to exploit the AI to gain an advantage is cheese. The Wildcat isn't cheese. Everyone wants to site how well Miami did against the Patriots, but ignore how well NE contained the wildcat the second time around, or how the Ravens and others shut it down once they had time to prepare for it. This is the issue, for every stratagy, there is a weakness. In Madden this is not the case. You just get the first down or TD with the QB dive... you just do.