The 3-4 is still broken, ideas and ways to fix it.

[Obelysk]

Where to begin? Well as many of you have noticed the 3-4 defense is broken this year (again) both on and off the field (I will explain this a little further). The purpose of this thread is to try and identify the issues and try to give the developers ideas as to why it’s broken and how they can try and fix and rectify these issues for Madden 11. I for one am very frustrated trying to implement my favorite defensive formation in the game as it plays right now and many different ways.

Let’s start with the basics; the defense just doesn’t play like its real life counterpart. Having said that, there are a lot of variants of the 3-4 defense out there in the league (example; The Cowboys mostly use their Dline as one gap penetrators compare to the Steelers who use a 2 gap system for their Dline) and to try make every team play as its real life counterparts is a little out of reasonable range since we cannot get the basic 3-4 defense to work properly right now. For game play purposes we are going to use the generalizations of how most of 3-4 defenses work.

For starters the most prolific problem with the game right now is that the 3-4 OLBs are not getting any pressure or sack at all. Now I am no expert on why these issues are occurring but I will state the reasons as to why I believe are happening. For one, the OLBs seem to be too slow to get to the QB. Usually by the time that the ball is snapped and they come on a blitz they get stuck on the Tackles and by the time that they do disengage the QB has already thrown the pass or if the QB does get hit he will throw a lame duck. For most of the season I notice that my OLBs and other team OLB either end up with 4-7 sacks at most, and I am talking about guys like James Harrison, Terrell Suggs, Shawn Merriman and Demarcus Ware. I am sorry but this should not be the case, they should all get multi digit sacks a year.

The DEs are leading the team in sacks. Here is another issue that bothers me. Since OLBs don’t come on a blitz on every pass attempt and NTs and DEs do, they end up with most of the sacks. Like I said, for game play purposes the DEs should be trying engage double teams on passing downs when there are other players coming on a “blitz” instead of trying to just go after the QB. Their main purpose is to free the OLBs in order for them to make the plays not have them actually go after the QB for a sack (although it would be reasonable if the Dline are the only ones engaging the Oline on that particular play). They are simply not playing to what their assignments are especially on passing plays and are not closing and taking up blockers.

The NT, this one just like the DEs are simply not getting double teams. Now it’s understandable that if you have bad NT you should be getting manhandled but when you have a guy like Casey Hampton you should get double teamed most of the time. I personally have seen our Pro Bowl Center Dan Koppen get absolutely rag dolled by NTs like Kris Jenkins on one on one assignments and let me tell it’s a bad idea to those NTs on alone with a Center.

Now I mentioned that the 3-4 defense is also broken off the field. Well since I play mostly franchise mode and I tend to use mostly teams that run the 3-4 defense (just coincidence) I find it extremely hard to draft for proper players. Now there are a pretty good amount of 3-4 DEs that I can draft and have found some nice gems but when it came time to find 3-4 OLBs let me tell you that its hard. For the most part nearly every OLB was too small to play on that front and nearly every single DE that had the proper measurements turn out to be a bust. On a side note, this really irks me but teams that are running the 3-4 defense start to draft or sign DEs that completely undersized. I just checked and the Broncos starting DE in year 2 is 6’1 240 lbs, seriously he is so small that he shouldn’t even be playing OLB for them much less DE. Lol

I think that they did in Head Coach was a great way to fix this issue. They had players that would fit certain schemes and will have a higher overall rating if they were either in the 3-4 or the 4-3 so teams like the Chargers would stay away from guys like Robert Mathis when contracting during free agency or during the draft. Now I would actually like to expand on this idea even more; someone on this board had a great idea and I really think that the developers should take a look at it. It mostly consisted of having 2 kinds of players in the NFL, the pure players and the tweeners (or hybrids). A pure player would be a player like Gary Bracket who is a 4-3 LB and would practically fail on any position in the 3-4 defense due to his lack of size, than we have a tweener and in this case we will use Shawn Merriman who can play OLB on the 3-4 or DE in the 4-3. So by using this logic we and the CPU can better scout our players and FA that better suit their schemes as well as convert them to use them properly in their corresponding schemes. So like I said I forget who posted it but here are the ideas for the tweeners:

DE/OLB: These are practically your Demarus Ware, Shawn Merriman, Adalius Thomas and Terrell Suggs of the world who are basically 4-3 DEs that are converted to OLBs but generally would have stayed as DEs had a 4-3 defense team drafted them. So basically these are mostly players that are between 6’0 - 6’4 tall and from 250-270 lbs.

DE/DT: These are the Richard Seymour, Haloti Ngata, Ty Warren and Luis Castillo's of the world that would mostly be 3-4 DEs in the NFL or DTs in the 4-3. These are mostly guys that are 6’4 – 6’7 tall (nearly all starting 3-4 DEs have to be very tall) and between 285 – 320 lbs (although Ngata far exceeds this but he is a freak and should actually be playing NT).

ILB/MLB: Here is one that was not talked about and the reason why I want this one added is because not every MLB can play ILB in the NFL. Jonathan Vilma, for example, was a star MLB for the Jets when they were in the 4-3 but than looked completely lost and out position the minute that they transitioned to the 3-4. Thus the Jets eventually had to cut their loses short and traded him to the Saints where he would be a better fit. I personally could never see Barrett Ruud or even Jon Beason playing ILB in any 3-4 team because they are simply not stout enough to play that position. These guys would be between 6’0 – 6’4 tall and 240 – 255 LBs.

NT/DT: this one is a little harder to describe since its basically a DT but you also have to understand that not every DT can play NT in a 3-4 defense. Someone like Pat Williams who plays NT/DT for the Vikings is a monster clog in the middle and could actually play NT in 3-4 effectebly (Just like Kris Jenkins did last season). Now compare him to a guy like Tommie Harries is still a great Under Tackle would basically get absolutely demolished playing the middle because he is just not stout enough to play that position. Also Guys like John Henderson is too tall to play that position as well (6’7) although in his earlier days he was a monster clogger. So basically what you need for a NT is a big body guy (315 – 365 lbs) with a lot of strength and a low center of gravity (6’0 – 6-4 tall) so he doesn’t get blown off the line of scrimmage.

Now I am sure that EA could probably expand on this a lot more since there are so many versatile players in the NFL these days like Percy Harvin or Reggie Bush who are WR/HB hybrids or Cris Cooley who is a TE/HB tweener or Brandon Albert who is Guard playing Tackle. I would love it if the CPU was smart enough to sign players and move them around depending on need. Then as far as pure position players who would basically play their respective positions like Tommie Harries who is strictly a Under Tackle in the Tampa 2 and would fail anywhere else, or Cato June a pure 4-3 OLB or Robert Mathis who is also a just 4-3 DE and probably too small to play 3-4 DE (although James Harrison is pretty small but he is more the exception than the rule).

Also I would like to comment on the fact that I sometimes see 3-4 teams that have two real good ILBs but for some bloody reason they want to trade away one of them because they believe that they only need one. Please EA, either fix this or create 3-4 and 4-3 depth charts so that the AI is not trading away players that they actually need.

Please if you have more ideas add them to this thread. The idea is basically finding problems and ideas on how to fix this issues.

[Bat]

I prefer the 3-4 and definitely don't get the results I would hope for.

If you use a 3-4 team or build one like I usually do, your ends are usually closer to dt's than normal pass rushing ends. So I don't expect many sacks from them, combined with no sacks from the lb's equals ... practically no sacks. I can only get sacks with my controlled de.

Definitely frustrating.

One thing I have noticed makes a HUGE difference is MAN defense. I started playing alot of zones because thats kinda key online. Well once I started doing man defense with controlling the end I would see alittle more sacks and definitely alot more ints.

The moment i changed to mainly man defense in 2 games Gamble had 5 int's 4 for tds (yes too much but still).

I'm rambling...

[PanthersFanboy]

Pick the Ravens and run cover 3 form the 3-4. I done this to the cpu and they only got 100 yards on Off.

I also played 1 of my friends and he used the Ravens and ran cover 3 the entire game and I could do nothing. I don't know how well it works with other teams but it does with the Ravens.

[cjonas82]

When it comes to LBs getting sacks in the 3-4 I think the problem is the blizt. I started to sub my LBs in at DE on passing downs and almost always running cover 3 (out of a dime) and I got 7 sacks in a game. I am avg about 3-4 a game now . But it gets very boring runnung cover 3 all the time and a HUM player will pick up on that quick. If I do blitz because I am getting bored the CPU QB always either hits the flats or slot for a big gain or throws a duck of INT

[raguel]

I think the problem stems from the design of the plays, i.e. the angles the players, specifically the OLBs, take to get to the qb.

Also run/pass commit has been taken out, and AWR and play rec appear to not help at all when cpu calls a playaction; the players almost always take angles to pursue the back, even if, in that situation, they are responsible for the bootleg/reverse.

[Jump]

Great stuff. This has to be addressed.

[Wesman]

Good thread. What people seet mentioning are the dl and lb shifts. This makes a huge difference. I get good pressure and a realistic number of sacks. The 3-4 is designed to confuse with blitzes... But you can't really confuse the ai. So the shifts serve to perpetuate the confusion. In the 3-4 you should blitz heavily, not when bored.

[imskykid]

Here is what was posted in the other thread:

Separate Depth Charts for 4-3 and 3-4 teams. (This is just an example)

CB---------- 5T--- NT--- 5T---------------- CB
-------DE/OLB- MLB - MLB- DE/OLB--------

----------------S ---------- S-----------------------

5T (5-technique for lack of a better term), NT, and DE/OLB would all have their own specific rating qualifications. You want Glenn Dorsey to be your NT? Well his rating is going to take a hit because while he might play well as a DT in a 4-3, there are different attributes that make a 3-4 NT more effective.

The 5T for laziness sake (because EA wont want to spend the time anyway) their rating qualification could be the same as or close to DT ratings... but a different position would be nice because they have different responsibilites/attributes required to play the position.

Finally, what makes the 3-4 nightmares for QBs, the DE/OLB. Having a totally seperate rating for this position would eliminate the ability to plug any OLB in and be sucessful. Derrick Brooks is a HOFer but would not survive as an OLB in a 3-4. They need to have ratings similar to (but not exact) of DE. This way when you switch a low-70s Vernon Gholston to DE he doesnt go up to 90. But there should be a slight drop off when you switch a DE to DE/OLB because of coverage responsibilites.

Another thing this would improve is the Draft in Franchise Mode. The CPU Cowboys would not draft a DE who is 6'3" 255lbs and expect him to play the 5-Technique in their 3-4. Instead, players who have the DE/OLB position would default to whatever position best suits them for the scheme they are drafted into. Same would work with Free Agency when say Shawne Merriman isn't resigned. Instead of going to the Saints to play OLB, he would be switched to play DE because that is what their scheme dictates (much like how OLB Greg Ellis for the Cowboys is now DE Greg Ellis for the Raiders).

Simmed stats in Franchise are scewed because the same sim logic is applied to both 3-4 and 4-3 teams where DE's and DT's get the most sacks, when we all know that is FALSE! Creating all new positions and depth charts would allow for stats to be realistic and a good step in the right direction for gameplay.

LINK:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...eds-fixed.html