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Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

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Old 09-04-2009, 05:39 PM   #217
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Quote:
Originally Posted by roolz
Scrap all the real life aspects of this discussion, as we are talking about a game, that OK plays a real sport but in all honesty is far off being a proper represntation on and off the field, so the GAME aspect should come into play, rather than my franchise future being all but decided before I put the game CD into my console.
The progression isn't entirely pre-defined, it's part and part. Young players can progress with no playing time, just like in real life the way we see rookies ride the bench for a year and come in as quality players later. Old Madden would have regressed their ratings due to lack of stats.
In later years, they need to play to progress.
The old performance system could see the likes of you and I become the best backs in the league just by being fed goal line carries or having the ball thrown to us repeatedly. Clearly that's wrong, and clearly most players do have a limit to what they can ultimately achieve, regardless of coaching and playing.
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:48 PM   #218
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

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Originally Posted by kcarr

[You said some good stuff here]
I was using the example with Steve and others to show why production based progeression doesn't work alone. I want to promote the return of the "playing time" stat. Holding for a FG doesn't count as playing time. Playing time should only count "starts" and not "games played." With "my system" of progression, only 1/4 of it comes from production and if you have no playing time or very little playing time that 1/4 of your overal grade of production should go against you. So, for example, the system should look like this:

NOTE: Pulling ranodm guess numbers, so just go with me here.

Steve Young 70 OVR A potential

Potential: A: improves
Production: Games played/stats per game: little to no games. No penalty
Training: Hard Worker: Improves
Coaching: 49ers coaching staff in the 80's/90's = great: Improves

Steve Young Improves.

- Note, Work ethic should be a rating IMO that is the check for "training." Maybe use a more politcally correct term for Work ethic so that low rated players don't get mad at EA calling them lazy or somethng.-

Ryan Leaf
Potential: High: Improves
Production: Lots of games, poor results: regress/doesn't improve
Training: average: no improvement
Coaching: they had 1st pick so they can't be good: no improvement

Result No improvement. After a few years of this and/or the game checking and resulting in regress, he lowers. Leaf is a bust.

Peyton Manning
Potential: High: Improves
Production: Solid Rookie year and after that multiple 4,000+ yard seasons: Improve
Training : one of the hardest workers in the League: Improve
Coachign Staff: Prior to Tony Dungee, not so good: Regress/no improvement

Result: Manning Improves.

You may see that if Ryan Leaf worked harder to be NFL ready and he made smart in-game choices his stats wouldn't be as bad, and he would have improved over time as a palyer and in Madden this way.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that stats drive how good you are but how good you are drives your stats. this is the reason why your stats only play a role in checking if you should progress. After all, in my opinion, no matter how hard you work and how good your coaching staff is, come Sunday, if you can't handel the pressure and make mistakes and play poorly, you really aren't very good after all, are you?
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:54 PM   #219
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

I think one of the things we're also not considering is the actual player rating for Madden generated drafted players. I've got a centre with A potential, but currently rated 51. He's no good to me. Even getting 6 points a season, it will be five years before he's any good. Far better the 83 rated player with B potential or even C potential - and those do exist in the player pool too.
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:55 PM   #220
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

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Originally Posted by kcarr
The player is playing at the ability of the ratings he currently has. You already know how much of the real deal a player is by looking at their ratings. Their is nothing to prove.
You can't say that and say he is overrated. Also, jsut becasue a player isn't a deep threat doesn't mean he is overrated. TJ isn't a deep thread and is a low 90's like Wess Welker. Being a deep threat doesn't make you a great receiver either. Great receivers are great all around. It doesn't matter if you throw a slant, screen or a bomb to Randy Moss or Seteve Smith or Fitz or Boldin, they are great receivers and that is why the are high 90's. They are the total package. Welker, TJ and H. Ward are great receivers but they are not the best of all time. Ward will be in the Hall and deserves it, but he doesn't make my all-time team ahead of Rice, Tim Brown, Chris Carter and others, though he is on my honorable mention and/or my rotation squad.

P.S. on that note, when friends do all-time great fantasy draft teams for fun discussion we make the rule only o ne all-time player can be drafted per team. So it helps to have rotation players and not jhust a top 5 list. Talk about nerds, huh?
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:59 PM   #221
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

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Originally Posted by roolz
Real life and Madden are getting mixed up a bit too much here... Madden is so far off being a realistic representation of the game, that its pointless.

So with that in mind... I have success with an F rated player - the Madden system has logic which tells me that, no this is not right he is not able to progress.. even though, this is a game and because I did well with him, he should be able to progress.

Its like not letting you complete Call of Duty 4 because in real life, 1 person cant take out a whole army of terrorists....

GAME, MADDEN IS A GAME - The ratings/potential system have to make sense to a game
r, at the minute they do not reward a gamer for being successful they reward a gamer for being able to sign an A rated potential player..... that is not a challenge.

If you want to harp back to real life, PLAYERS DO NOT HAVE A POTENTIAL CEILING. If I told a player that he would be no better than a scrub, yet he turns out to be a career player in the NFL or whatever sport... it happens, humans can over achieve, humans can learn, humans can become better in a team... im not saying they cannot regress, or do this all on their own - but Madden has to comphrehend that fact if it wants to take a Real Life stance to all this.

Progression has to be a risk/reward factor - that is what games are about... if progression is set in stone and what you do/dont do does not affect it, where is the fun?
So who determines that you are the gamer to whom these have to make sense. To me, as a gamer, a system in which players progress in a manner more closely related to how they progress in real life makes much more sense.

Noone on here, at least from what I have seen, has said that players should not progress or even that a player's progression should be set in stone. I know that I for one am not wanting EA to go back to a pre-set progression system but rather I want them to move beyond the current system to something more realistic.

I am not saying take control away from the users. In my system users actually have more control over progression than the current system. The current system, how much do you really control? You control who progresses and how much at least in some respect (within their potential your production leads to how much their overall improves).

In my proposed system the user controls who improves, how much, and in what areas they improve. The major difference is this control is in terms of strategy, and decision making rather than stick skills. You could control who progresses by the number of reps given in practice, camps, preseason, games, etc. (game and preseason reps would only improve the player a couple points in awareness, play recognition, vision, and other mental attributes during their first couple games as they get used to the speed of the game). You could control how much they improve by those same reps as well as by your coach hiring decisions. You also could control how they improve by choosing what types of drills and practices they run.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:25 PM   #222
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

You definitely need to perform to reach full potential in this game. I just started a franchise with Detroit as a test and I got rid of anyone on the team who had an ounce of talent except Stafford and surrounded him with guys rated in the 40s and 50s to assure that he performs poorly and at age 26 he has already begun to regress, so it's not as if guys have a predetermined rating and they reach that regardless of how they perform
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:28 PM   #223
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

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Originally Posted by Madden Head
You can't say that and say he is overrated. Also, jsut becasue a player isn't a deep threat doesn't mean he is overrated. TJ isn't a deep thread and is a low 90's like Wess Welker. Being a deep threat doesn't make you a great receiver either. Great receivers are great all around. It doesn't matter if you throw a slant, screen or a bomb to Randy Moss or Seteve Smith or Fitz or Boldin, they are great receivers and that is why the are high 90's. They are the total package. Welker, TJ and H. Ward are great receivers but they are not the best of all time. Ward will be in the Hall and deserves it, but he doesn't make my all-time team ahead of Rice, Tim Brown, Chris Carter and others, though he is on my honorable mention and/or my rotation squad.

P.S. on that note, when friends do all-time great fantasy draft teams for fun discussion we make the rule only o ne all-time player can be drafted per team. So it helps to have rotation players and not jhust a top 5 list. Talk about nerds, huh?

While Hines and TJ may not be great deep threats they are decent down field recievers making good targets in at least the mid range passing game. By the way, extreme coincedence in you mentioning those 2 players as when I originally posted I was looking at stats to back the deal with wes up and the 2 I randomly choose to look up were TJ and hines. Got tired of writing in that post though so didn't include them. I will here though to show my point that while they may not be deep threats they are much better targets at least in the mid range game where wes on the other hand is really only great at exploiting people playing too loose on him by running very short routes with the general level of difficulty being about that of catching a screen or dumpoff pass.

Over the past 2 seasons wes welker on average caught his 223 passes 4.22 yards beyond the line of scrimage. On the other hand Hines in those same 2 years averaged 7.17 yards downfield before the catch and TJ averaged 5.88 which is actually pretty low but not nowhere as low as wes. I would actually be willing to bet that almost all starting recievers were at least a yard better than wes in this area. While some of these other guys may not be deep threats most starting recievers are looked at as at least more than a dumpoff option, especially if they are going to be considered great.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:55 PM   #224
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Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

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Originally Posted by kcarr
By the way, extreme coincedence in you mentioning those 2 players as when I originally posted I was looking at stats to back the deal with wes up and the 2 I randomly choose to look up were TJ and hines.
Not really. All of the example are possetion receivers that are also concidered the best in the NFL at what they do. The fun part about watching the NFL and talking ratings and what not is you can have the opinion that Wess is over rated and I can disagree with you. Someone can say they think Manning is the best QB in the NFL and I can disagree and say I think it is Tom Brady. We both have our reasons and both will be good reasons most of the time. This is antoher reason I like the idea of not having a visable overall rating in Madden. It should be a letter grade. To some extent I think there should be a +/- letter grade system as well.

Regardless of who you personally like more, there is no question that Wess Welker, TJ and Ward belong on a list of some of the best active WRs in the NFL. They would deserve at worst an A- grade each. Also, just because one guy may be a Deep "A" grade receiver doesn't mean he is a better "A" grade WR than someone else. This is why it is improtant to not only look at the overall Rating. Look at the individual ratings. Route Running, catch in traffic, etc.

If I were to go into the free agency or looking to make a trade I should see an overall leter grade, maybe a ?? potential or a leter grade [that is debateable] and accurate skill number ratings.

P.S. Where did you get those numbers. I don't see them at NFL.com so I may be missing them. Also, that doesn't really influence me one way or antoher becasue the Patriots are a short and medium passing team. I would expect that. Also, if you actually watch Patriots games [I don't know if you do] they throw a lot of screens. I am sure that has a big impact on his "average" catch location in relation to the LOS. I could care less what his average catch location is, but what his ypc, yac, and catch to drop ratio is.
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