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Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

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Old 09-26-2009, 12:26 PM   #25
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB0B0
are you serious? fifa is way better than pes
Quote:
Originally Posted by remjohn
I'm also British, and without wanting to start a PES vs FIFA argument, this guy couldn't be more wrong. About 3 years ago sure, PES was the better game but since then FIFA has just got better and better and PES worse and worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trustpt
Dude, I can't believe you guys are comparing a football game with a futbol game. And btw, FIFA is a million times better than PES. FIFA is "sim", PES is an arcadish game. PES was outstanding till PES6 and FIFA back then was total crap. But now, with the new consoles everything changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono078
Have you even played pes on next gen?

FIFA blows it out of the water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicZulu25
Agreed. And I used to be a huge WE11 fanboy.
Yeah, not understanding the FIFA lovefest really. Barring speed, every single player feels exactly the same on that game. There is no difference between somebody like Lionel Messi recieving and controlling a ball than there is Richard Eckersley recieving a controlling a ball (to simplify the analogy, Messi - best player on earth, Eckersley - not even the best player in Burnley) For people to call FIFA a sim is laughable. As somebody already said, everybody/team plays the same way.

I think the Pro Evo fallout started with the first next gen version (08) which was pretty bad in comparison to previous standards, the same year which also saw FIFA's biggest improvement in going from being a joke of a game to an alright football game. People played Evo and when it wasn't up to it's (pretty huge) standards, they played FIFA and were so marvelled by the leap in improvement considering how awful it had been for years, that a love-in started. This continued last year with FIFA 09. Pro Evo 2009 was a big improvement over 08, the standard of the game not quite reaching PES 5/6 last gen standards, but it was the best football experience on any console. However, because FIFA improved a bit more on 08, added some flashy features whilst the changes being a lot more subtle on PES (outside of gameplay, the only 'new stuff' was licensed Champions League and Become a Legend), FIFA was declared king by a lot again. Pro Evo's pretty terrible servers/online play and FIFA's being bang on really didn't help the opinions of the online community.

As for this year, the FIFA 10 demo is again, not bad. Plays a bit better than 09 but it's still same old stuff, pass pass pass pass pass pass bottom corner. Pro Evo however has improved a lot in terms of realism. Every year, the makers of the 2 games talk about team play being important, how you really have to pass the ball find space, be patient, create chances. Never have I seen this more relevant than in Evo this year. Combined with the hugely improved visuals (prettiest football game I've ever seen), the confirmed improvement in reaction times from demo to the gold version and the incorporation of the Champions League and Europa League into Master League and whatever else may be
confirmed before release date, I'm looking forward to it.

I played FIFA 09 for about 2-3 weeks straight not long after it came out because of the opinions of others, hearing that FIFA was the best football game now. If it was true, I sure as hell wanted to know since I spend more time playing football games (well, Pro Evo) than any other. And I was almost convinced, the improvements in that game from how terrible it used to be are unreal. And it doesn't play badly at all. But after a while, it got boring, same stuff over and over, as soon as you know what you are doing, the game is far too easy. As I and somebody else said, everybody/team plays the same. There is no challenge. And it definitely isn't a sim. If FIFA was the better game, I'd be delighted. Especially considering some of FIFA's perks, like 3rd kits, huge selection of boots, licensed competitions, bunch of stadiums, ****loads of teams etc. You think I wanna edit Pro Evo, fixing all the unlicensed stuff? That takes tiiiiime. I just wanna play the most realistic interpretation of football. And whilst FIFA isn't a bad game, far from it, Pro Evo is that.
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Old 09-26-2009, 12:27 PM   #26
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

lol, didn't expect to wind up posting that much. Kind of started writing and it didn't stop. But yeah, never really posted my opinions on the recent FIFA vs. Evo stuff so I guess that would be 2-3 years worth of opinions

And I know this is in a Madden vs. FIFA thread but people jumped on my Evo comments so I figured I should respond.
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Old 09-26-2009, 12:38 PM   #27
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
Except the game doesn't force you to use tactics... You should be forced to have utilize your midfielders, you should be encouraged to pass the ball around a lot with teams like Arsenal and Barca', you should be encouraged to try to take advantage of corners with United, people who set up a custom tactic that has 10 men behind the ball shouldn't be able to generate much offense at all...instead of scoring 3 to 4 goals out of what is purely a defensive formation. You should be encouraged to utilize teams the way they play in real life.

In Madden, play a friend online...tell him to select a team with an excellent seconday, you pick the 49ers...and try to throw the ball ALL GAME. Don't run with Gore or Coffee, just pass on that good secondary all game. Let me know how that goes.

Then fire up FIFA 09, go online and play against anyone, tell me how many times you see people put together quick one-two passes near the 18 yard box to try and get the ball to a man running in for the shot, tell me how often goals are scored from solid build up utilizing the midfield and wingers, and then tell me how many times someone just runs all the way up the side of the penalty area with Ronaldo, Kaka, Mesi, Torres, Ribbery, Agbonlahor, Ashley Cole, Evra, etc. and just try to cross it in.

Which one of these things happen all game? Which one's are actually utilized in soccer? And which game penalizes you for not using the team they're used in real life?

I'd say FIFA is a fun game, but it's not sim. Madden isn't 100% sim either, but at least you have to somewhat use teams correctly for some sort of success.
Just so I'm hearing correctly. You are defending Madden's Sim in comparison to Fifa Sim correct. To me its as simple as watching a soccer match on TV and watching similar things happen on the pitch. Come on there is no real arguement here. Step up the skill level place it on manual game play, then talk to me about sim. You wont like Fifa very much I'm sure.
What frustrating to me is that people chime in on whats Sim and whats not sim and to me. Messi is great but there are other great players that are just as fast and can control the ball just as well. So they look and play similar not the same. That's Madden football as well or any sport for that matter. I dont think Richard Jefferson is as good as Kobe yet on NBA 2K he sure does move like him. You know why because they are basketball moves. Like Messi has counterparts they display soccer moves on the pitch. All I'm saying is that the fifa demo is getting more interest from me than is Madden. Reason being is this; It expresses soccer better than Madden expresses football plain and simple. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though for sure... So to each his own. Fifa is the BEST Sim coming out of "EASports at this time" IMHO. Who cares about PES, I didn't see that in the title. LOL

Last edited by tomymac23; 09-26-2009 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 09-26-2009, 01:02 PM   #28
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomymac23
Just so I'm hearing correctly. You are defending Madden's Sim in comparison to Fifa Sim correct. To me its as simple as watching a soccer match on TV and watching similar things happen on the pitch. Come on there is no real arguement here. Step up the skill level place it on manual game play, then talk to me about sim. You wont like Fifa very much I'm sure.
??

I do use manual and semi controls, that's why I hate to see the ping-pong passing that people do in FIFA with the assisted controls. I already mentioned how it seems like they toned down the assisted passing in the FIFA 10 demo....I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say...

All I said was, at least Madden somewhat forces you to use teams like their real life counterparts, while FIFA let's you use every single team in the same exact fashion. There's no difference in the style of play between a United, Chelsea, Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid, etc. The only noticeable thing is that extremely weak teams play a defensive game the whole time against a powerhouse, but that's against the CPU...not online.

If the game were truly sim then wouldn't it force you to take into account a team's strengths and weaknesses? Animations and control scheme aren't the only things to take into account when you're talking about "sim." A true sim game allows the user to play any way he/she wants, but only rewards what would actually work for that particular situation. To make the argument that FIFA does that better than Madden is insane. Otherwise you would see people struggling to apply constant pressure for the entire match, ping-pong passing everywhere, using the thru-ball and a fast player exclusively to attack, and you would see more build up play instead of constant counters (more midfield use.) But none of that is encouraged in FIFA...there is very little use of tactics in the game, by both users and the CPU (and this is a huge problem.)

Fire up Madden and try to use the 49ers in the same fashion as you would the Colts, online, and tell me how that goes.

You can make the argument that FIFA is a fun game, but it is NOT a great simulation of soccer.

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Old 09-26-2009, 01:15 PM   #29
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomymac23
What frustrating to me is that people chime in on whats Sim and whats not sim and to me. Messi is great but there are other great players that are just as fast and can control the ball just as well. So they look and play similar not the same. That's Madden football as well or any sport for that matter. I dont think Richard Jefferson is as good as Kobe yet on NBA 2K he sure does move like him. You know why because they are basketball moves. Like Messi has counterparts they display soccer moves on the pitch. All I'm saying is that the fifa demo is getting more interest from me than is Madden. Reason being is this; It expresses soccer better than Madden expresses football plain and simple. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though for sure... So to each his own. Fifa is the BEST Sim coming out of "EASports at this time" IMHO. Who cares about PES, I didn't see that in the title. LOL
And if you truly believe that animations and controls are all that should be taken into account when you're talking about what makes a sim game, then I'm not sure if you should even be in this discussion. To see tactics (or even the lack there of) work perfectly in situations in FIFA where they would NEVER work in real life, but completely ignore that because it was pretty...is kind of ignorant. It's no different than people complaining about the fast QBs in Madden who snap the ball and run, or snap the ball, run, and fire a strike on the move. So to counter that what did EA do? They slowed down the QBs' drop back animation to a more realistic pace and added different accuracy ratings to govern what QBs' can and can not do. Why? To allow the user to do what he or she wants, but only rewards what the player's real life counterpart can or can't do.

But because FIFA has nice animations and great controls, the users who want to do the most unrealistic and foolish things on the pitch should be rewarded for their lack of tactics....in a tactical sport?

C'mon now....
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Old 09-26-2009, 01:49 PM   #30
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomymac23
I think whats missing in this back and forth is quite simple. FIFA seems to do a better job of expressing futbol than Madden does at expressing American Football. Period. Thats the main reason a lot of guys on this site play the games. They want them to play as real as possible and while passes in FIFA can be assisted it also can be manual. Shots take practice and skills. Plain and simple FIFA is a more complete game of futbol than Madden is at Football. Its their flagship sports title and bests seller why would it not be...

TMAC
If the majority of guys on the site play FIFA, and most of them aren't entirely familiar with the sport, then it makes sense that FIFA would be their game of choice. Online and off, hardly anyone plays on manual and the passing isn't even the only thing that makes the game feel unrealistic so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that statement. In fact, guys that are actually passionate about soccer don't play on manual because it can be too hard sometimes.

The game doesn't encourage using your midfield, slowing the game down, or building from the back. It encourages find Torres/Messi/Ronaldo/Ibrahimovic/Henry and try to run past the defense.

I think sometimes people get too caught up in the licenses and animations. I think if they made a few changes, namely the speed (which is still too fast), the endless pressure and aggresion, the ease with which someone sitting with 10 men behind the ball can get out on the counter, and the way that, with assisted passing, a guy could literally roll the ball right by your defenders foot and he won't attempt to steal it, the game would be significantly more sim. Problem is, people would stop playing it if they did that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomymac23
Just so I'm hearing correctly. You are defending Madden's Sim in comparison to Fifa Sim correct. To me its as simple as watching a soccer match on TV and watching similar things happen on the pitch. Come on there is no real arguement here. 1. Step up the skill level place it on manual game play, then talk to me about sim. You wont like Fifa very much I'm sure.
What frustrating to me is that people chime in on whats Sim and whats not sim and to me. 2. Messi is great but there are other great players that are just as fast and can control the ball just as well. So they look and play similar not the same. That's Madden football as well or any sport for that matter. I dont think Richard Jefferson is as good as Kobe yet on NBA 2K he sure does move like him. You know why because they are basketball moves. Like Messi has counterparts they display soccer moves on the pitch. All I'm saying is that the fifa demo is getting more interest from me than is Madden. 3. Reason being is this; It expresses soccer better than Madden expresses football plain and simple. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though for sure... So to each his own. Fifa is the BEST Sim coming out of "EASports at this time" IMHO. Who cares about PES, I didn't see that in the title. LOL
I'll just respond point by point:

1. That still doesn't explain why you think the game is more sim. Or how it's a realistic representation of soccer. The CPU is known to cheat on World Class or Legendary just as it does in Madden on All-Madden. You pass the ball, the CPU runs you down immediately and you're forced to ping-pong the ball around the field. Not sim. This is assuming you actually watch soccer as you claim to.

2. No, actually there isn't anyone else on the planet right now that can control the ball as well as Messi can at speed and under pressure. Ronaldo's my favorite player and I won't even say that he's as good a dribbler as Messi. I would say it's debatable but due to Messi's quickness and low center of gravity it's incredibly difficult to take the ball off of him and honestly I kind of feel like they may be close to getting this specific aspect right in FIFA 10. Close, but not there yet.

The guy that mentioned everyone playing the same wasn't a reference to the players though. It's the teams. Turn up your pressure and aggression and hold down the A and B buttons and you'll find that with any team you can more dictate the flow of the game entirely. Unless...you opponent turns on the assisted passing and just ping-pongs the ball around. In FIFA 10 they've deliberately slowed down the strikers relative to the defenders so that you have to pass to the midfielders more. Unfortunately those midfielders still get barged off the ball far too easily to make a difference. Yes you'll have to pass to your midfield more, but the key to game will still be getting it to the wing and crossing it in. Just look at how often the CPU does this in the demo for evidence of that.

3. Once again, you make this definitive statement but don't back it up. Of the elements that I described up in point 2, what do you see that's realistic in there? Or what makes FIFA so realistic for you in general? If it's so plain and simple, you shouldn't have trouble explaining it.

Would the pass to the fast striker and sprint past the defense for the goal be the reason? The ease with which one can just turn and fire a finesse shot at an angle and drop it into the top corner every time (which, by the way, is still possible in FIFA 10)?

For the record, I can't stand PES, from the robotic looking and running players, to the pinpoint accurate passes, to the lack of licenses, I'll never play that game. I like FIFA more but I'm not so blinded by the hype that I can't see how NOT sim it is. It is better than PES for me, but it's certainly not a sim.

If the game played like a real simulation of soccer, the 4-3 scorlines wouldn't happen nearly as often as they do both online and off. Those that think soccer is incredibly boring would hate the game then. It's no coincidence that when the game goes from slow(er) and tactical, to lightspeed and arcadey, people that never used to like soccer (and still probably couldn't watch it on TV as it looks nothing like this game goes) are singing the game's praises.

I hope you'll come back with something though.

Last edited by Murkurial; 09-26-2009 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 09-26-2009, 02:55 PM   #31
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

I agree, FIFA 10 is the best soccer game around. I can't wait to get it.
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Old 09-26-2009, 02:59 PM   #32
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Re: Madden 10 vs. FIFA 10 Demo

At this point this has nothing to do with Madden.
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