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Old 09-29-2009, 03:16 PM   #89
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

I think everyone agrees with putting whoever on the o-line and seeing unrealistic blocking animations and simmed stats. My question though is has anyone tested this on the other end with stud o-line men to see if the there's a least a difference in how the game plays and/or how the stats are simmed?

So yes, it's certainly unrealistic for an o-line made of punters/kickers to pave the way for Justin Forsett (or whoever it was in this post) to get 4.3 YPC. But if this o-line was made up of a bunch of Pro Bowl 90+ rated Center/Guard/or Tackle studs are we seeing a increase in this YPC?? or a noticable difference in how the game plays (more pass protection, bigger/better running lanes from RB's)? I'm just holding onto a hope that yes this is broke at it's core but maybe not throughout...

Sounds like everyone's tested the o-line on the bottom side of ratings, just curious if anyone's tested it at the top end....
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:37 PM   #90
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by KBLover
I understand your point, but I think the game could use a few less ratings - which makes the ratings that exist even more important because they encompass more aspects of skill/physical ability.

For example, footwork/body control could go into AGI (the ability to control and manipulate your body). Blocking strength could go into STR (the ability to exert power/force behind your movements).

Then the way to make a physically weak-but-still-effective OL would be lowish STR (for his position) and very high AGI (for his position). Say the average STR is 75 and AGI 70 for an OL. This type of player could have 65 STR and 90 AGI or something of that nature along with a good RBL rating. He becomes weak against raw power moves, but he could use his AGI to hold up against spin moves as well as direct the defender so that he still creates his gap on the play. Throw in good ACC and you have a guy that gets off the snap (ACC), can change directions well (AGI), understand blocking assignments and engage the block (RBL), and have enough STR so that he can hold his own on the field (STR).

I think what fewer ratings would do is require more creativity in player ratings so that diverse player types can still be reflected, otherwise it would tend to fall into the "everyone looks the same" trap.

That said, it might be easier on the designers (and, presumably, easier then for them to get solid) to take the ratings that DO matter and incorporate more into them and drop the ones that don't.
PBF and agility are two completely and separate things. Agility is a physical ability. How well you can change direction and move. Footwork is a technical skill in how well you can bend and move like a proper Oline(I wont get into further details because I dont know how to properly block, I just know that there is something about bending at the proper places ect ect that are taught not born into like agility is to an extent). The issue with making agility universal means I can take a big strong/agile WR and place him on the line as a pass blocker. His agility would allow him to stop speed/finesse rushers. When IRL would a WR be able to stop Freeney coming round.

I agree they need to remove some ratings but it is different ratings I suggest. I suggest removing pass block, run block, and throw accuarcy(maybe awareness but I would rather see positional awareness made instead of a general stat that applies for all players)
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:43 PM   #91
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by Glorious Arc
I disagree with the idea of removing ratings and making it "basic"

Each player IRL has their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to blocking. Some are tight in the hips and have poor footwork but are strong as an ox(several linemen in the NFL). Some have great footwork and fluid movement but are fairly weak(Joe Staley type) By making it down to run block and pass block players are no longer playing like their RL counter parts.

.
That's where AGILITY should come in. Otherwise, where would the AGI rating come into play for the OL? Agility and speed should determine a guys flexibility, footwork and ability to get out on pulls or stay with DE's.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:52 PM   #92
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by mavfan21
That's where AGILITY should come in. Otherwise, where would the AGI rating come into play for the OL? Agility and speed should determine a guys flexibility, footwork and ability to get out on pulls or stay with DE's.
Please read my other post and you will realize how flawed using an agility based blocking system is. Lets not forget that if you use agility for making good finesse blockers then guys like Felix Jones and Reggie Bush and Devin Hester would become extremely good finesse blockers.

Being agile and having good footwork don't always go hand and hand. Case in point Jeff Oath who has 50 something agility but a 92 run block footwork. Ryan Deim 50 something agility and 88 pass block footwork. Mike Gandy, Chris Samuels, and many others have 50 something agility but are consider above average(80+) footwork people in madden.

Now look at all the WRs, RBs, ect ect who are agile and dont have squat for footwork. Footwork is a technique just like tackling. It is learned not given. Speed, Agility, and throw power are all attributes that are given when you are born and can only be worked so much. Techiniques like footwork, tackling, coverage, ect ect are noramlly learned on the field from practice and study. You cant study to be agile.

This doesnt even mention how ludicrous it would be to the amount of code they would have to change. First they would have to remove every rating like you said. Then implement the new system. Find and remove all the bugs. Then tune the new system...Heck it would take them an entire cycle+ more if they were to only work on that.

Last edited by Glorious Arc; 09-29-2009 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:53 PM   #93
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

Having the ratings isn't the problem. Not using them is. Lets have the extended array of ratings, but they have to be used.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:09 PM   #94
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by FieryMurphMan
I think everyone agrees with putting whoever on the o-line and seeing unrealistic blocking animations and simmed stats. My question though is has anyone tested this on the other end with stud o-line men to see if the there's a least a difference in how the game plays and/or how the stats are simmed?

So yes, it's certainly unrealistic for an o-line made of punters/kickers to pave the way for Justin Forsett (or whoever it was in this post) to get 4.3 YPC. But if this o-line was made up of a bunch of Pro Bowl 90+ rated Center/Guard/or Tackle studs are we seeing a increase in this YPC?? or a noticable difference in how the game plays (more pass protection, bigger/better running lanes from RB's)? I'm just holding onto a hope that yes this is broke at it's core but maybe not throughout...

Sounds like everyone's tested the o-line on the bottom side of ratings, just curious if anyone's tested it at the top end....
So far with 99 overall linemen I am averaging 5-10 seconds of sitting in the pocket against the Vikings, Colts, and Giants. I used a single back set with 4 WRs and 1 RB the RB takes off on a route. The defense uses a 4 man rush from the Dline. The fastest sack was 4.38 seconds but every other play was in the 5 second range. I had a total of 2 plays that lasted 15.28 and 14.75 seconds long. I did ten plays with each team for a total of 30 downs. I will edit my post when I compare results with an overall 12 line.(This is All-Pro with no adjustments to the game aside my linemen)

I didnt bother to check what the times were with the vikings or giants. With only the colts tested on ten downs the times were as followed.

2.94
3.16
4.59
5.51
3.48
2.77
3.89
4.84
3.66
2.89

There was an obvious time difference from 99 to 12. I was going to try and test the CPU with the same line but the QB for the CPU throws the ball at about 1-3 seconds with the 12 overall line before a Dlinemen gets to him and with the 99 line he throws it about 3-6 seconds every play.

Results for rushing are a bit different. I used Ronnie Brown at HB and took the 99 overall line against the vikings. I used cover 1 out of the 4-3 and I used I-form set and ran the Iso. The 99 line would typically get a solid push and hold the line until Brown was past and if the CPU could run the ball he would have gained 5+ yards every down but sometimes he would run away from the SS or FS. With the 12 overall line Brown was getting anywhere from -1 to 4 yards a carry. He made more logical choices running with that line then with the 99 line. The 12 overall line would almost never push the Dline and they were often times shed and/or being pushed by the Oline to the side as they try and keep up with the Dline.

They arent big differences but they are there IMO. If you have someone with 12 overall as an Olinemen across the board he would look like a 14 year old freshmen who plays WR in the NFL. He should get pancaked and beat around constantly. The lower rated players still have some chance to make a play but like I said IMO it is to much of a chance. The 99 overall players on the other hand do dominate most of the time. I am about to run against the vikings.

With the 99 overall line, I averaged well over 5+ yards. I had several plays that were 10 yard runs without doing much work besides following the blockers. I saw Kevin Williams get into the back field 4 times out of 20 or so runs. I broke him twice, dragged him forward 4 yards once, and he dropped me for a 1 yard loss. I also had one 30 yard TD run which Brown broke out of pro-tac and walked in.

With the overall 12 line, I maybe averaged 2-4 yards if you count the 8 and 10 yard runs. Williams ate me alive. He was off his block and tackled me at the LOS or for a loss 9 times out of a total of 20 plays. Most of the yards earned were by Brown breaking tackles or by him falling forward.

All in all, the line does matter. Do your own tests on all pro and see for yourself. They may not matter on All Madden but that is a horse of a different color. All pro=Line ratings matter

Last edited by Glorious Arc; 09-29-2009 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:12 PM   #95
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by Glorious Arc
@guaps

I hate you...

I would love to see more mathematical solutions involved with madden but lets face it...The target crowd madden sells to is either under 18 or doesn't care enough to learn why the ratings are so different. You will end up with countless people complaining.

Any game with pre-canned animation game will almost never follow real life physics 100% of the time. Thus, Madden with its current system will never properly represent what happens IRL.

People say they need go back to basics and fix the blocking. But really, they need to go back to the physics of the game and rebuild there. The game has no sense of momentum, physics, or anything else that happens IRL except for some of the pre-canned animations that look decent in some situations. Otherwise, the game looks and plays like a game that came out years ago.

They have added many things that make M10 different from M05. The one thing remains though that makes M10 just like M05...Pre-canned animations. As long as they keep using this technology as the main source of gameplay, I don't feel we will ever see a revolutionary change to the gameplay.
Correct.
I have tried to play and love this game but it is goddamn ridiculous. To your point take punt coverage..Hester will catch the punt but the punt coverage person will over run Hester, stop on a dime and all of a sudden zoom back up to catch Hester...allllll of this within 5 yards. It is garbage, rubbish and absolutely infurriating.
Also, if you take a LE or RE and move a lil more outside and attempt to rush around the tackle. 80% of the time it will suck you in to the tackle. EVEN if they ran an outside run and the RB is 2 yards from you.
This is just 2 examples there are 100s more. they need to get rid of this animation crap. I dont give a flying eff that they added one new animation for WR...the over the shoulder..great and now i see it 70% of the time. FIX THIS GAME...throw out everything you have and start over. it CANNOT BE FIXED AS IS! bottom line, end of story, period, no excuses. not acceptable. not acceptable..absolutely not acceptable
To quote Jim Mora Jr...(not that EA would know bc obviously they DO NOT watch football)
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:28 PM   #96
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by Cum_Laude
You know, I feel bad for Ian...here he went out and has kept us gamers WAAAAY more in the loop on the madden thing than normal. He has listened to our gripes and tried to correct them, and all he has gotten is a bunch of people whining and bi***ing to him constantly and calling him out...And you all wonder why he doesn't answer these questions.

Ill bet this is the last madden where we have so much interaction with the creative director...they learned their lesson on this one. Coming out like this trying to help, all he did was put a huge target on his back.

I know it's frustrating, but deal with it!!!
I actaully feel bad for you. Even at his time you never came to realized that Ian played you and others in this forum.

Ian has a job to do and this is to sell games. Say what ever he has to say in order to get sales. You mean to tell me with all the proof that is out there that you can't see that.

Wow man I feel real sorry for you.

The only thing Ian has proven is that he can not handle producing a real football game, and understanding the realsitic idea we present to him in this forum.

Ian plays this game for months before it releases, and members in here play if for a day when it releases , and from 1 day of playing they list 10 things that were poorly done.

Either Ian is not good at his job or this Engine is a nightmare, cause D.Ortiz also got the boot heading things for Madden. Ian unfortunetly might be next if sales don't improve for Madden 11.
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