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Old 10-22-2009, 01:13 PM   #489
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
AP didn't break very many tackles when I played him last night. Only runs he got were when he got into open space. The break tackle slider seems to mean more than the actual moves ratings. Both he and Ray Rice went down on first contact constantly.

I've not seen a power back really run over a defense. They run over DT but get brought down by CBs.

I don't think that CIT rating does as much as it should. Catching in coverage seems to depend more on the QB Accuracy slider (or WR catching). I know I haven't played a game where I can say, without looking at ratings, "Wow, he must have a crap CIT rating". Or "he must have a great SPC rating." In fact, I check the ratings and wonder how the receiver held on to the ball or actually made so many great catches.

Webb has 75 CTH, 65 CIT - he doesn't get picks any better. Heck, Ray Lewis makes better picks than he does with his 50 CTH and 15 CIT. In fact, Ray Lewis leads the team in INTs.

My RT has the most sacks allowed - but the second best pass blocking ratings on the team.

Ray Rice has gotten around 3.7 ypc against every team so far. No matter if it's the crappy Browns or the Vikings and their tough Run D.

Trevor Pryce has 11 sacks (in 6 games!) but the rest of the team has 10 sacks...combined. Even 96 rated Ngata isn't getting in the action. Pryce isn't bad, but he's not THAT good. Heck, that's a pace for 32 sacks...Ngata out-classes him in every relavent pass rushing rating - so why does he have only 3 sacks?
Packers vs Stl. Rams in coach mode last night and the Packers held Jackson in check for the first quarters. However, he did end up with over 130 yds by the end of the game and he had one 70 yard run called back because of holding. He was running through LB's and CB's and safety. He was a tough one to bring down after awhile.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:21 PM   #490
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

There are still people who dont believe we put a man on the moon despite the evidence. No way in hell is everyone going to be on the same side of the fence on this despite some valid points and vids. Thank God EA doesnt make anything TRULY important.
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Old 10-22-2009, 02:39 PM   #491
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by arichzona
There are still people who dont believe we put a man on the moon despite the evidence. No way in hell is everyone going to be on the same side of the fence on this despite some valid points and vids. Thank God EA doesnt make anything TRULY important.
LoL...agreed.
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Old 10-22-2009, 02:41 PM   #492
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by roadman
Packers vs Stl. Rams in coach mode last night and the Packers held Jackson in check for the first quarters. However, he did end up with over 130 yds by the end of the game and he had one 70 yard run called back because of holding. He was running through LB's and CB's and safety. He was a tough one to bring down after awhile.
That's good to hear.

Sounds like fatigue might have set in on your defense and that let him get going.

That - I like to see.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:47 PM   #493
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by RMoody
Its not worth arguing. Some people just dismiss this and continue to play as if ratings have an impact across the board.

I think way to many people take M10 as a person indictment on football.

Anybody who wants to look at the tons of videos (or try it themselves) should understand this is a problem. Yes, putting a punter or kicker in as a lineman is extreme but it proves the point.
It proves A point. But not THE point that ratings don't matter on the line.

I've read through most of this thread, and the problem is the assumption that ratings don't matter because players who are playing out of position or who have been edited to low ratings perform as well as players who are naturally at that position and have high ratings.

The issue could very well be that the code screws up when a player plays out of position. It also could be that, when players are edited, perhaps the game is not really reflecting those edited ratings. Now, if that's the case, those are problems that should be fixed. However, what you can't do is automatically assume that, because in these two instances problems occur, that the ratings are screwed up. You've introduced two variables into a test that could be triggering problems that have nothing to do with ratings and everything to do with playing players out of position or editing ratings.

The correct test of this is to see if the lowest-rated linemen perform as well as highly rated linemen. Some have said that they have seen this. Personally, I think players who top out around 90 OVR, at any position, do perform significantly better than others. Early in this thread, one of the posters tested this with pass blocking and found an all 90 OL did provide more time in the pocket on average than a lower-rated line.

However, is there a difference between an 80-ish rated lineman and a 55-60 rated lineman? That may be where the issue lies. Also, the differences may simply not be enough to warrant the big gap in ratings -- if you can rush for 3.7 ypc with a 60 line and a 4.0 with a 80 line, that doesn't seem significant enough.

I would like to test this out because I think it's an interesting discussion, and I don't want to rely on my own anecdotal analysis because that's unreliable.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:50 PM   #494
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by KBLover
OL can catch passes. Also, if this is a football simulation - all players should have all ratings. Most should suck for the OL but some, especially those used on "Tackle eligible" type passes should get a passable rating. Heck, VRABLE caught a TD pass this year. A OLB.



Because they are reflected two different skills. Footwork might help avoid penalties or "resist" certain moves by the defender. STR should matter, AGI is for changing directions not for sustaining run blocks.




Because, again, AGI is for changing directions. I.E. cuts. A finesse move doesn't happen because you're agile, it happens because you can execute the move with the ability to break a block. If anything, you could condense them into *BSH* but not AGI.

PRC is just what it's called - ability to decipher the play as it happens. Being alert and being able to read keys to a play or picking up the tip off from a WR are two different things. Alertness let's you bat the ball down at the last minute, make adjustments to the ball in the air to get a better shot at the pick, being able to get a good "jump" on the ball in the air (faster reaction time).



They need the play action rating. Some QBs do execute/are more comfortable selling the PA fake than others.



Again, in a football simulation, it has to handle situations that might not happen in the NFL. What if I call a HB pass with a guy who never did it in the NFL? How would the game resolve that without a rating for every player?



WR can pass block. WR screens, the other WR are technically pass blocking (they can't block down field or else that's offensive PI).

And, again, what if fatigue or injury makes me decide to use a bigger, physical WR as a 2nd TE and then call a 2 TE formation pass play?

Also, where is the rating for beating/breaking out of press coverage? Or avoiding the jam to begin with? Need the RLS rating also.



DBs need CIT. It's a different skill to catch a ball that's an uncontested INT and one where you're in tight coverage and trying to pick the ball off - just like for WR. Basically, the only difference between a WR and CB should be coverage and route-running ability. Coverage should generally be higher for DBs and route-running higher for WR.

Also DBs (and all defenders, really) need a PRS rating.

What's the difference between "pass blocking moves" and FMV/PMV or BSH?




I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is what was already stated long ago - the low ratings don't kill you. They should if the player is being asked to use that skill. That's as simple as changing it's usage in an equation (for example, if there is a floor - take it out)



No it shouldn't.

A CB isn't a ******. He's just not skilled at running exact routes. However, if you tell him to "run 6 yards then hard cut towards the middle of the field and look for the ball" he will be able to do it to some degree. These are NFL athletes, not 5 year olds.

I mean, think about it: How many crossing routes or slants or curls or posts have DBs covered in man-to-man? All man coverage is, at its most basic, is running a route along with the WR. That's basically the definition of tight man coverage. The main reason why WR can get separation is because the DB doesn't know what route will be thrown at him, but it doesn't mean he can't do the same movement as the WR do to run the route.

I mean you or I could run a crossing route. Where the skill comes in is reading the coverage while doing it, or doing it while beating the press, and doing it fast enough to get open before our QB got killed.

That's where the RTE would come in. If he's running a cross against loose zone, he SHOULD be able to run it. If it's against press coverage, well - that's a different matter.



No he shouldn't.

He should just get beat by basically any cut/move the receiver made more often than not. Not to mention get burned by the raw speed difference.
In my opinion, there are many uneccessary ratings. I also don't think it's neccessary to simulate things that wouldn't happen in the NFL. That does not makes sense. Vrabel would be a exception, I did say in my posts that there should be players who are exceptions.

When you have RBS and PBS, why do you need a STR rating for Olineman ?

When looking at AGI, what effect does it have for a WR when you already have RTE running, & elusiveness ?

When you have a pursuit, man coverage, zone coverage, and finnesse move rating, where is the need for an AGI rating for defensive players. Anyway you look at it, there are a lot of unneccessary ratings, which may be creating a cluster f**k, causing most of the ratings not to matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
No it shouldn't.

A CB isn't a ******. He's just not skilled at running exact routes. However, if you tell him to "run 6 yards then hard cut towards the middle of the field and look for the ball" he will be able to do it to some degree. These are NFL athletes, not 5 year olds.

I mean, think about it: How many crossing routes or slants or curls or posts have DBs covered in man-to-man? All man coverage is, at its most basic, is running a route along with the WR. That's basically the definition of tight man coverage. The main reason why WR can get separation is because the DB doesn't know what route will be thrown at him, but it doesn't mean he can't do the same movement as the WR do to run the route.

I mean you or I could run a crossing route. Where the skill comes in is reading the coverage while doing it, or doing it while beating the press, and doing it fast enough to get open before our QB got killed.
It's one thing if you tell the CB to simply run a route in practice, versus in an in game situation when he is being pressed and doesn't have the timing or know the offense. It doesn't matter anyway, as long as the CB is totally ineffective like he should be , you won't see what happens because you won't put him at WR.

Last edited by Dmacho; 10-22-2009 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:56 PM   #495
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

Quote:
Originally Posted by arichzona
There are still people who dont believe we put a man on the moon despite the evidence. No way in hell is everyone going to be on the same side of the fence on this despite some valid points and vids. Thank God EA doesnt make anything TRULY important.
Amen my brother. I really don't understand why people try to defend stuff like this. They come up with all kinds of excuses and nonsense to refute the evidence hitting them smack in the face.

I've come to the realization that Madden for some people is like a beautiful mail order bride they've wedded only to later find out she spent the last 5 years as a street walking prostitute in Bangkok. You're already in love, so the only thing to turn to at this point is denial.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:50 PM   #496
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by Dmacho
In my opinion, there are many uneccessary ratings. I also don't think it's neccessary to simulate things that wouldn't happen in the NFL. That does not makes sense. Vrabel would be a exception, I did say in my posts that there should be players who are exceptions.
You still have to give the exceptions a rating. Which means there needs to be a category to hold that rating. So you might as well give it every player.

As far as simulation what doesn't happen in the NFL - why doesn't it make sense?

Does Ray Rice throw halfback passes in the NFL? No because that's not in Baltimore's game plan. However, if he's on a team in Madden that DOES have a halfback pass in their playbook, and that team has Ray Rice, or any other HB that doesn't throw passes in the NFL, and that team calls a HB pass and the HB throws the ball - how does the game resolve that?

Exceptions wouldn't cut it. What if I don't have one of the exceptions, but call the play? Should it be an automatic failure? Is that realistic?

To me, ratings mattering is making it so I can have a player that's a 1 at something do that something, and fail misearbly. Otherwise, you've got the P blocking a DT.

To me, it doesn't matter if P's play OL in the NFL once the simulation/gameplay engine comes into play. That should be reflected in the ratings (Ps should have 1's in blocking) and then the result of those ratings gets played out. (1 PBS vs 80 BSH and 80 PMV, for example).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacho
It's one thing if you tell the CB to simply run a route in practice, versus in an in game situation when he is being pressed and doesn't have the timing or know the offense. It doesn't matter anyway, as long as the CB is totally ineffective like he should be , you won't see what happens because you won't put him at WR.

The CBs should have a weak RTE and RLS rating. That doesn't mean they should be totally incapable of running 20 feet forward, turning to the middle of the field, and then running 20 feet forward. That's all an in-route is.

Whether or not he succeeds at doing that vs press coverage would be determined by his RLS rating. How precisely he runs that route depends on his RTE (I wouldn't throw this to him if I needed 10 yards and that was a 10 yard route - he might run it at 7 yards and then not read the coverage right, etc).

There's a difference between "not able to run a route well against press coverage" and "running diagonally and having the ball hit him in the side of the helmet"


Oh and as far as why has STR when you have blocking strength:

RBS/PBS = Hold long they engage the block. STR could equal how much push you get. A low STR o-lineman with high RBS could be one that holds his block forever, but doesn't drive the D-lineman 3 yards off the LOS.

RTE is for running precise routes. I.e. the WR knows where to be and when to be there. AGI could impact how square his cuts are and how fast he makes them and how much speed he loses in and out of those cuts, and how well he can shake his man in man-to-man coverage. A high AGI WR could be more adept at throwing the fake in a double move route, for example.

Those are different skills/physical traits. No problems with having those, imo.

Last edited by KBLover; 10-22-2009 at 11:03 PM.
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