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Old 09-28-2009, 02:50 PM   #57
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by guaps
My point exactly. There is no physics engine in Madden



If there was a physics engine in Madden a 170 lbs punter couldn't push off a 350 lbs DT even if he had 99 STR and superior blocking skills, because the 350 lbs DT would simply weigh too much. Which would also have an affect on drafting in Madden's Franchise Mode, as a 6'0" 280-some O-Lineman would be unattractive, despite a high potential.

Furthermore you could incorporate that a 350 lbs DT with 99 ACC shouldn't be able to accelerate as fast as a 175 lbs. WR with 99 ACC. And that the acceleration/movement of the heavy guy should have a higher impact on fatigue. Twice the body mass needs twice the force to obtain the same acceleration (Newton's Second Law of Motion), so they should tire faster.

But since there are no physics in Madden, your idea of making the actual ratings work in the first place and even impose rating caps sound like a brilliant idea
I agree with most of this.

The part I dont agree with is the ACC. If someone is fast then they are fast. If they are explosive they are explosive. If I have a 300 pound man who runs a 40 yard dash in 4.6 seconds and a 150 pound man who runs it in 4.6 seconds they in theory are just as fast/explosive as each other. The only difference is the bigger man will have more momentum.(I understand 40 times are not good tools to use sometimes but it gets the point across)

In most cases, Oline and Dline are more explosive or just as explosive as most of the skill position. They just dont have the strength to get to the same speed and the end of the 40 dash is significantly slower. In the 10 yard dash though they show similar/better times.

The bigger guys normally tire quicker then the smaller ones but there are some freaks that are big and dont tire. I think that should be handled case by case with the fatigue ratings.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:12 PM   #58
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

Ok, some quick brainstorming and pseudoscience to explain what I mean. Ratings will still be in the game, but they would need re-thinking as they would have to be relative to the individual players height and weight. Furthermore OVR rating would disappear as they would no longer make any sense.

The following should not be taken seriously as they are just spontaneous ideas and quick calculations.

Let's use 40-yard dash times for speed (which is not very reliable as sprinters don't reach top speed before 50-60 meter mark, but let's assume we can use it)

Say, a 4.1 second 40-yard dash is the fastest achievable time - think Usain Bolt fast. That's our benchmark giving us a velocity of 8.92 m/s (I'm european, so I prefer the metric system in science, sorry). Now let's first construct a SPD rating using that. If we want to stretch our ratings let manipulate them and construct an arbitrary scale from between 4.1 and 6.1 seconds for a 40 yard dash time. 4.1 being 100 SPD and 6.1 being 0 SPD. Then DeSean Jackson would have a SPD rating of 83 and Haynesworth 48 SPD, using 40 yard dash times found on the internet.

If we look at ACC. Haynesworth needs to use a force of 1,065 newton to propel his 320 pound frame into a speed of 7.42 m/s (SPD 48), while DeSean Jackson only needs 668 newton to make him run 8.41 m/s (SPD 83), which let's us create a ACC rating based on weight. Assume that 190 pounds is the optimal weight for running fast (Usain Bolt weighs 190 pounds), which gives us, using the 8.92 m/s, a benchmark for ACC at, say, 50. DeSean Jackson then gets ACC 38 as he doesn't need more to move his weight around, while Haynesworth needs ACC 60. This rating could easily be stretched or a different benchmark could be chosen.

As for handling outliers you could make sweet spots for your physics ratings. Say, a height of 6'2-6'4" and weight of 220-225 pounds is the optimal combination for WRs, looking at speed, agility, acceleration, strength and jumping attributes. Then assume attributes are normally distributed around that sweet spot, so a 6'7", 250 pound receiver can't be lightning fast and agile, but he could be strong and vice-versa.

And when looking at small DBs hitting with ferocity, you are often talking about small players in high speed. E.g. the Eagles vs. Saints game where Sheldon Brown smashed Reggie Bush, because Browns' 200 pounds was run at high/full speed and hit hard on Bush's 203 pound, who had very little forward momentum. Of course a hit power rating could be implemented, as some players pound-for-pound hit harder than others (Bob Sanders comes to mind).

Again, don't take this stuff too seriously, as I'm just rambling on
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:16 PM   #59
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thats probably more thought than ratings czar donny moore did!
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:37 PM   #60
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

@guaps

I hate you...

I would love to see more mathematical solutions involved with madden but lets face it...The target crowd madden sells to is either under 18 or doesn't care enough to learn why the ratings are so different. You will end up with countless people complaining.

Any game with pre-canned animation game will almost never follow real life physics 100% of the time. Thus, Madden with its current system will never properly represent what happens IRL.

People say they need go back to basics and fix the blocking. But really, they need to go back to the physics of the game and rebuild there. The game has no sense of momentum, physics, or anything else that happens IRL except for some of the pre-canned animations that look decent in some situations. Otherwise, the game looks and plays like a game that came out years ago.

They have added many things that make M10 different from M05. The one thing remains though that makes M10 just like M05...Pre-canned animations. As long as they keep using this technology as the main source of gameplay, I don't feel we will ever see a revolutionary change to the gameplay.

Last edited by Glorious Arc; 09-28-2009 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:55 PM   #61
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

I think expecting Madden to make a game with no pre-canned animations is unrealistic, and nearly impossible to achieve. What are they supposed to do to replace them?
How about we start with the basics...making the ratings actually effect how the players play on the field. Then it starts to make more sense to focus on the animations.
I wish I never read this post,I don't think i'll be able to ever play Madden again knowing that O-line ratings mean nothing. Not just saying that, thinking about the ratings just makes me sick to my stomach. Another thing that bugged me while I was actually playing the game is this..I blew every team out on all-pro, but the worst thing is the scoring. Almost every game was like 50-30, give or take a few points. Does the Madden team not realize that some games are low scoring? Not every game is a shoot-out kiddies. I guess I wouldn't notice either if I was playing an online franchise constantly. Football is won and lost in the trenches most of the time, not by big plays that happen WAY too often in M10. They have a LONG way to go before this game plays anything like real football. Way to go Donny, Ian, all the gang.
The next Madden I check out will be in 2012. I'm assuming 11 will be junk considering that right they are more worried about stadium sounds, etc. than they are about fixing the gameplay. If they haven't fixed it by then, I give up.

Last edited by roots3003; 09-28-2009 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:59 PM   #62
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

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Originally Posted by roots3003
I think expecting Madden to make a game with no pre-canned animations is unrealistic, and nearly impossible to achieve. What are they supposed to do to replace them?

Nobody is asking for that. We just want the correct animations to trigger based on the criteria presented. If you have a 5'10" 180 lb reciever blocking a 6'4" 290 lb DT, at least break it down to the following:

weight
velocity
strength

Screw "block shedding" and "finesse move". Get the basics down first. Then, instead of creating a whole new rating called "block shedding", go the APF route and let it be a modifier, or boost to the current calculation.

Then play the appropriate animation. Right now it looks like the animations are the only factor, rather than the ratings driving the animations.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:44 PM   #63
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

Right on, I see what you're saying now. It's funny, the developers have all the information and ideas to make a great game right in front of them on these forums. Ah well...they're probobly having a good time on their online franchise right now. Just curious if anyone has a last-gen version of madden so we could see how stats, o-line subs. etc. worked back then compared to now. It seems like the older versions of Madden played way more realistic. Even in Tecmo bowl..I liked the way for each offense play, there was a defensive play that would counter it.
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Old 09-28-2009, 07:33 PM   #64
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Re: Ratings and The Easter Bunny

Quote:
Originally Posted by roots3003
I think expecting Madden to make a game with no pre-canned animations is unrealistic, and nearly impossible to achieve. What are they supposed to do to replace them?
How about we start with the basics...making the ratings actually effect how the players play on the field. Then it starts to make more sense to focus on the animations.
I wish I never read this post,I don't think i'll be able to ever play Madden again knowing that O-line ratings mean nothing. Not just saying that, thinking about the ratings just makes me sick to my stomach. Another thing that bugged me while I was actually playing the game is this..I blew every team out on all-pro, but the worst thing is the scoring. Almost every game was like 50-30, give or take a few points. Does the Madden team not realize that some games are low scoring? Not every game is a shoot-out kiddies. I guess I wouldn't notice either if I was playing an online franchise constantly. Football is won and lost in the trenches most of the time, not by big plays that happen WAY too often in M10. They have a LONG way to go before this game plays anything like real football. Way to go Donny, Ian, all the gang.
The next Madden I check out will be in 2012. I'm assuming 11 will be junk considering that right they are more worried about stadium sounds, etc. than they are about fixing the gameplay. If they haven't fixed it by then, I give up.
I feel your pain..... I just stopped midway 3rd qtr with the Cowboys vs Raiders. It was 30-35 which has been on par with every game in my franchise this season.
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