Other EA games can be rebuilt from the ground up in one year. Why cant madden?

[Dmacho]

Quote: Originally Posted by GTheorenHobbes

Really? I thought RMoody posted a video where Ian was talking about Madden 08 "making more strides than any other Madden in history."

This is first shot at being the lead designer. It's the first year that he can choose which direction he wants madden to go. David Ortiz was the lead designer for madden 08, 07, & 06.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soodmeg

But arent those new attributes? Power moves and block shedding were a recent development and something I dont remember from madden 04 and madden 05 games in which the line play noticeable better. Why would you add more variables when you cant handle the ones you already have. It still doesnt explain why every simply things are not programmed correctly. You would have to convince us that very simply concepts like sideline catches (as in someone near the sideline should also trigger a sideline catch animation) is as hard to program as the rest of the game. FG nets, is that hard to program? Because it took them like 4 years to do it. Your answer are not doing anything but adding to the, "its very hard thats why its broken."

Again, I don't work at EA, but sideline catches and working field goals nets, when compared to everything else that must be done correctly in a football game, aren't exactly priorities to get into the game. EA has a finite number of man-hours to add to the game, test their additions, debug their additions, change previously existing code, and debug previously existing code. Basically, adding those minor details forces the development team to make few changes to the rest of the game, and the final product ends up being something similar to NCAA 10, which is a decent football game but not significantly different on the field from NCAA 09.

Also, to say the line play is not much better in previous versions of Madden is laughable. Madden used to always be ridiculed because NFL2K's line interaction was at the time far superior. Madden's isn't perfect yet, but they've made great strides this year.

To generalize that statement even further, to say Madden does nothing right and hasn't improved by leaps and bounds since it debuted on next-gen, particularly when comparing Madden 10 to any previous game in the series, is a shortsighted and incorrect statement. Put next-gen Madden 06 and next-gen Madden 10 side-by-side and try to make that argument. Heck, put next-gen Madden 09 and next-gen Madden 10 side-by-side and try to make that argument.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soodmeg

Because it really really seems to me as the biggest excuse/cop out of all time. "Hey Ian why cant you fix simply things in madden?" "Thats easy! Because programming football is hard."

Are you saying programming a football game is easy?

Quote: Originally Posted by Soodmeg

Again, you guys CAN NOT convince me that madden is somehow 100s of times harder to program than anything else. Unless a programmer comes into this thread and says...."Madden has crazy hard code. I graduated from MIT and I cant get pass the start screen code." I will not accept that has an answer.

And you can't convince me that programming a football game is easy, easier than all other sports games, easier than all other games unless you or a programmer from MIT says that they can program Madden in 6 months, tops. I will not accept that as an answer.

As far as why Madden doesn't rebuild the game engine or make a new one - that's probably as much a business decision as it is the developer team decision.

I.E. EA is statisfied with the game as it is as long as sales are good, and if they keep dropping, that might be a bigger catalyst than any competition.

Creating a new engine probably would take more money, maybe time (depends), and the people the fork over the money to the development teams and set the deadlines at EA may not want to go down that road.

[Dmacho]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soodmeg

But arent those new attributes? Power moves and block shedding were a recent development and something I dont remember from madden 04 and madden 05 games in which the line play noticeable better. Why would you add more variables when you cant handle the ones you already have. It still doesnt explain why every simply things are not programmed correctly. You would have to convince us that very simply concepts like sideline catches (as in someone near the sideline should also trigger a sideline catch animation) is as hard to program as the rest of the game. FG nets, is that hard to program? Because it took them like 4 years to do it. Your answer are not doing anything but adding to the, "its very hard thats why its broken."

My point is football video games are harder to produce, no one is making excuses for EA, you just can't compare two different sports games. That's the point ; don't use other sports games and a measuring stick.

[Soodmeg]

Quote: Originally Posted by Krioniq

Again, I don't work at EA, but sideline catches and working field goals nets, when compared to everything else that must be done correctly in a football game, aren't exactly priorities to get into the game. EA has a finite number of man-hours to add to the game, test their additions, debug their additions, change previously existing code, and debug previously existing code. Basically, adding those minor details forces the development team to make few changes to the rest of the game, and the final product ends up being something similar to NCAA 10, which is a decent football game but not significantly different on the field from NCAA 09. Also, to say the line play is not much better in previous versions of Madden is laughable. Madden used to always be ridiculed because NFL2K's line interaction was at the time far superior. Madden's isn't perfect yet, but they've made great strides this year. To generalize that statement even further, to say Madden does nothing right and hasn't improved by leaps and bounds since it debuted on next-gen, particularly when comparing Madden 10 to any previous game in the series, is a shortsighted and incorrect statement. Put next-gen Madden 06 and next-gen Madden 10 side-by-side and try to make that argument. Heck, put next-gen Madden 09 and next-gen Madden 10 side-by-side and try to make that argument.

I didnt say that madden does nothing right but although I give credit for the things they have done to this madden its easy to be leaps and bounds better than any previous madden this gen although the other ones were almost worthless to begin with.

Thats not the point I am making.

The point is the fact that you have a product that continues to get the same overall things wrong each year both big and small. Although I agree that this is the best madden with the most to offer in quite some time. My point is not how good madden is, its whats preventing them from making a significant gameplay enhancement.

Pro Tak is a great enhancement I question why they choose to work on that when there is clearly other things that should have gotten attention.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soodmeg

I didnt say that madden does nothing right but although I give credit for the things they have done to this madden its easy to be leaps and bounds better than any previous madden this gen although the other ones were almost worthless to begin with. Thats not the point I am making. The point is the fact that you have a product that continues to get the same overall things wrong each year both big and small. Although I agree that this is the best madden with the most to offer in quite some time. My point is not how good madden is, its whats preventing them from making a significant gameplay enhancement. Pro Tak is a great enhancement I question why they choose to work on that when there is clearly other things that should have gotten attention.

I can't effectively respond to this without knowing your opinion of what Madden 10 gets wrong.

I can say that, with regard to Pro-Tak, that it's probably the single most important addition to the game this generation. In Madden 10, tackling plays out completely different than in any other football game thanks to that technology; having a physically strong running back makes a difference now (rather than just choosing stronger tackle-break animations), and big pile-ups can be pushed around by surrounding players for additional yardage. It fits the dev team's theme "Fight For Every Yard" perfectly, and was executed very well, IMO.

The technology extends to OL-DL interaction, where the pocket actually exists in Madden for the first time in, well, ever. Previously, tackles didn't really even drop back, and speed-rush ends would get stone-walled at the line. Now the tackles actually move downfield and try to push DEs around the QB.

That it's only in its first year of existence has me looking forward to what Pro-Tak can offer in the future, as well.

[d'ultimate]

I posted this in another thread but here goes:

I don't understand the argument that a one year dev cycle is the problem. Madden and 2k both churn out excellent games in 2005 which many viewed as a big improvement from the previous year. I can't speak for Madden but 2k added VIP, Cribs, and ESPN 25th Anniversary Mode as well as more animations, classic uniforms, ESPN and Sportscenter integration including halftime, postgame, playoff and superbowl shows. Plus they upgraded things like First person football.

Another thing is that every year some person from EA comes out and tells us about all the new features and brag about all the superficial stuff. They're adding more this, more that etc, etc.

But, even if we allow that it is more hard to program a football game, something I completely disagree with unless shown proof otherwise, why don't they take a year off from adding stuff and just concentrate on refining and tuning the game's "engines"? Just get it to the point that 80-90% of the flaws are eliminated.

[scarface scotty]

Quote: Originally Posted by Krioniq

I can't effectively respond to this without knowing your opinion of what Madden 10 gets wrong. I can say that, with regard to Pro-Tak, that it's probably the single most important addition to the game this generation. In Madden 10, tackling plays out completely different than in any other football game thanks to that technology; having a physically strong running back makes a difference now (rather than just choosing stronger tackle-break animations), and big pile-ups can be pushed around by surrounding players for additional yardage. It fits the dev team's theme "Fight For Every Yard" perfectly, and was executed very well, IMO. The technology extends to OL-DL interaction, where the pocket actually exists in Madden for the first time in, well, ever. Previously, tackles didn't really even drop back, and speed-rush ends would get stone-walled at the line. Now the tackles actually move downfield and try to push DEs around the QB. That it's only in its first year of existence has me looking forward to what Pro-Tak can offer in the future, as well.

Then why do I see guys like Willie Parker taking nose tackles for a piggyback ride? I wouldn't define him as one of those "strong" running backs.