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Once you go AP the game is never the same

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Old 10-15-2009, 11:57 AM   #57
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Re: Once you go AP the game is never the same

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Originally Posted by KBLover
I think a lot of it is the AI in video games. Playing a sport requires a lot of intelligence, instinct, and the ability to decipher "keys" or other ways to read what the other team is doing to you.

Especially in football - a lot more to it than just the physical side of the game that's most easily visible. But the AI has a hard time reading keys or making adjustments "on the fly" as a play is developing. Then add on top the developers wanting to "make it fun" or "make it harder" and realism goes out the door for hyped up physical ability, button press timing meaning too much, and player AI that just can't cut it.

Baseball games suffer too, but it's easier as baseball is much less complicated even when in action. But the button press timing comes in when you can take an average guy and hit .340 with him or when you can't fool the AI on a curveball after 3 high fastballs, or can hit a knuckleball like it was on a tee.

I think if they took all the spins and jukes and r-stick stuff out, or at least limited it significantly, it would work. Real players don't spin and juke and truck as often as you can make them do in the game. It's enough to try to get as many yards as you can and read the field and your blockers than to try to spin around like a top out of the backfield.

And like was said, the game has become so offense oriented and the defense is so dumbed down with it's AI. Why don't the top DL run over the offense like the top HBs can the defense? Why doesn't Ray Lewis roam the field laying wood on everyone? Why doesn't Freeney be nearly unstoppable? Why don't we have to fear and wonder where Polomalu is?

But I'm guessing the "it's not fun to have 14-7 games" mentality kicks in. I bet the developers thought "it's fun to have 40-37 games!" and make it so that's apt to happen. And the result is what we have - a game too focused on big plays and once in a while performances (often with the "it happened once so if it happens again, it's realistic" thinking, forgetting that frequency is also part of realism and "sim") and not enough on the plays that really win or lose football games barring a huge disaparity in team ability.

If we never do have a sports game that's more about realism than big plays happening too often and button press timing is more important than who you're controlling (i.e. his abilities) and weak AI, then I believe that's all the developer's doing. I don't think it is technologically impossible, even now.
Yet again great points, and I wholeheartedly agree. Except some one is going to say "play coach mode then", even if that isn't at all what you or I mean.

Big plays, and button mashing, appeals to the average Joe madden player. I now realise, that those of us who want real sim, are in the tiny minority.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:04 PM   #58
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Re: Once you go AP the game is never the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
I think a lot of it is the AI in video games. Playing a sport requires a lot of intelligence, instinct, and the ability to decipher "keys" or other ways to read what the other team is doing to you.

Especially in football - a lot more to it than just the physical side of the game that's most easily visible. But the AI has a hard time reading keys or making adjustments "on the fly" as a play is developing. Then add on top the developers wanting to "make it fun" or "make it harder" and realism goes out the door for hyped up physical ability, button press timing meaning too much, and player AI that just can't cut it.

Baseball games suffer too, but it's easier as baseball is much less complicated even when in action. But the button press timing comes in when you can take an average guy and hit .340 with him or when you can't fool the AI on a curveball after 3 high fastballs, or can hit a knuckleball like it was on a tee.

I think if they took all the spins and jukes and r-stick stuff out, or at least limited it significantly, it would work. Real players don't spin and juke and truck as often as you can make them do in the game. It's enough to try to get as many yards as you can and read the field and your blockers than to try to spin around like a top out of the backfield.

And like was said, the game has become so offense oriented and the defense is so dumbed down with it's AI. Why don't the top DL run over the offense like the top HBs can the defense? Why doesn't Ray Lewis roam the field laying wood on everyone? Why doesn't Freeney be nearly unstoppable? Why don't we have to fear and wonder where Polomalu is?

But I'm guessing the "it's not fun to have 14-7 games" mentality kicks in. I bet the developers thought "it's fun to have 40-37 games!" and make it so that's apt to happen. And the result is what we have - a game too focused on big plays and once in a while performances (often with the "it happened once so if it happens again, it's realistic" thinking, forgetting that frequency is also part of realism and "sim") and not enough on the plays that really win or lose football games barring a huge disaparity in team ability.

If we never do have a sports game that's more about realism than big plays happening too often and button press timing is more important than who you're controlling (i.e. his abilities) and weak AI, then I believe that's all the developer's doing. I don't think it is technologically impossible, even now.
Well said, this year a premium has been put on who can mash the r stick, turbo, or spin button in the correct sequence to trigger phony animations that lead to big gains and/or touchdowns. I have finally come to realization that there is no point in calling actual defensive plays, you just need the right formation then "trick it out" with a ridiculous amount of defensive hot routing and such just to contain (not stop) the high-powered offenses in this game. Its a checklist that has become mentally draining. Slants and drags covered, check, flats covered, check, deep ball covered, check, tight end up the seam covered, check and on and on. Add to that a running back who is a threat and a mobile QB and your woes go up 10 fold. By the time the ball is snapped your defense sometimes looks like a Chinese fire drill.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:06 PM   #59
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Re: Once you go AP the game is never the same

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agreed LBz. if the d guys would play to their actual levels of skill, the offense would be toned down some by this. then the avg guys on offense will look avg like their supposed to. stars on offense would continue to be that, to a lesser degree. and then we could have BALANCE?!?
I think the thing right now that is frustrating is because there is not a great deal of complexity to behaviors, they are all general, so guys on D cheat a lot. CB's, LB's still have eyes in the back of their heads. On offense you really cannot make a person pay for lining up a scrub DB in cover 0 vs WR's like Randy Moss. But they also do not give you the ability to disguise your coverage either. There is no timed blitzing either. All of this is necessary IMO.
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