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Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

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Old 10-13-2009, 06:13 PM   #1
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Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

I'm not trying to bash Madden, I know some people still enjoy playing it, I've had fun playing the game for a long time but I think I'm pretty much done with football games. I just don't find them to be that much fun anymore for a couple of reasons. I've come to the ultimate conclusion that today, football games are not made properly. For starters, if a football game does not have that "sliding around" feeling like what we used to see in the old NBA LIVE games its just not fun to play, PERIOD. The other day I pulled out my old SNES ( I know its a dated system) and messed around with it a little. I threw in the original Madden game and was quite impressed by a few things in that game. It has that "sliding around" feeling that just makes the game fun as hell to play. You can juke players by just moving the D-pad. And those old Madden games on the 16 bit systems were played in what I would call "real time". You actually see substitutions being made during the game. You watch players comming in and out of the game on a regular basis and it takes time to call plays.

This actually makes playing defense a little easier because at times you can predict what the offense will do. There was also a feature where you could tell your defense to either "read", "attack" or "cover". If you tell your defense to "attack" its less likely that a running play will work and of course, if you tell your defense to "cover" its less likely a passing play will work, and "read" tells the defense to see what the offense is doing after the snap. This really adds a ton of strategy to the game. But for whatever reason, EA eventually took this out of the Madden games for good.

3 other things that made this version of Madden work really well and this is why I say football games are just not made properly now days...

1. Throwing into the flats (and screen plays) should work quite often in football games for a couple of reasons.... most running backs can out run linebackers, so to counter this, the user has to manually cover the flats or call a defensive play that can counter this etc...etc.. however, this should open up the "off tackle" runs because of line backers moving into the flats to cover a posible pass in that area. This basic football element would make it a constant 'chess match' between users.

2. Sweeps (and toss plays) should work more often, I know EA has improved the sweep play in the newer versions of Madden but its crucial to be able to 'turn the corner' on the defense. Like controlling the flats, users on defense would need to anticipate this play. Although, that opens up passes over the middle and runs off tackle, it still needs to be a big part of video football.

3. In the early versions of Madden, QBs could move a lot quicker in the pocket and because of the "sliding" they were able to dodge players that were blitzing or defensive lineman that broke through the offensive line. You could move pretty quick with the QB and avoid the sack but not always. This made playing good QB extremely important. In today's Madden you just can't do this because it doesn't have that sliding feeling, if two line backers are blitzing you're are pretty much screwed, the QB only moves fast after you hold down the 'tuck ball' button.

I think EA needs to build an entire new game engine and implement these old Madden ideas into the game. Without it I jsut feel like I'm playing a robotic game with 3D animations and the success of my plays heavily depends on how well I understand the game engine rather than true football mechanics.

Last edited by KillRoy; 10-13-2009 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:35 PM   #2
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Re: Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

i love these thread. these is why people think espn 2k5 is better than any next gen football games which is true. if ea can add all the features from last gen football to madden 11 then we are going to have the best football game ever.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:44 PM   #3
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Re: Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheg4dabears
i love these thread. these is why people think espn 2k5 is better than any next gen football games which is true. if ea can add all the features from last gen football to madden 11 then we are going to have the best football game ever.
2k5 is a good game but it doesn't have that "sliding" effect. However, I can appreciate 2k5 because it does take into consideration that runing against dime and nickel is not the same as running against 4-3 and 3-4. Just like in real football, in 2k5 its easier to run against nickel and dime. That is quite realistic and the Madden games have just recently implemented that football element. However, with the "attack" for defensive scheme in the classic Madden games, even a nickel could have some success against the run.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:15 PM   #4
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Re: Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

Anyone?
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:05 PM   #5
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Re: Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

"sliding around" feeling

I'm not sure what you meant. This reminds me of NBA2K basketball where a player would knock the other player out of bounds but that guy would then be able to slide back onto the basketball court without falling to the ground.

"read", "attack" or "cover"
There's plenty of strategy in Madden. You can run "attack" blitzes or "cover" 3 defenses, etc...

1. I thought the flats in Madden were broken (too easy for the offense). I think they are expected to fix this in Patch #2.

2. Toss plays seem to be unstopable in Madden 10.

3. So, you want to be able to see QBs like Michael Vick scrambling around the field, dropping back 10 yards and heaving a 50 yard pass into the end zone?
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:39 PM   #6
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Re: Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

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Originally Posted by baseballsim
"sliding around" feeling

I'm not sure what you meant.
It has to do with "momentum" and not being able to stop on a dime. In the old NBA LIVE games, players would "slide" or "glide" around on the court and if they change direction it would take a second for the defensive player to adjust to it. You also see this in the orignal Madden game on the SNES. I'm not sure if this can be done with 3D games but I'm pretty sure it can, i've seen other 3D games that use this type of physics.

Quote:
"read", "attack" or "cover"
There's plenty of strategy in Madden. You can run "attack" blitzes or "cover" 3 defenses, etc...
I suppose but its not exactly a team thing. In the old game, if you tell your team to "attack" they all look for the run except for the secondary. This opens up passes over the middle. So, it causes the defensive player to have to choose between covering the run and giving up the middle of the field or to cover the middle and give up the run. Its a balancing issue that would turn the game into a chess match instead of what it is now.

Quote:

1. I thought the flats in Madden were broken (too easy for the offense). I think they are expected to fix this in Patch #2.
Maybe it is but again... the right play call should stop it but not always if the game is balanced properly.

Quote:
]2. Toss plays seem to be unstopable in Madden 10.
Unless the game is programed properly with an "attack" scheme tosses will work anyhow.

Quote:
. So, you want to be able to see QBs like Michael Vick scrambling around the field, dropping back 10 yards and heaving a 50 yard pass into the end zone?
No, what I want is the ability to dodge people while I'm in the pocket. The only way to do this is to implement a "sliding effect" into the game.

Most of my issues are just balancing issues but I would like to see a new game engine entirely that uses some type of momentum effects that allow QBs to dodge incomming blitzers and linemen. Right now if you get caught in the pocket its going to be a sack. Why not change the game a bit?
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:53 PM   #7
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Re: Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

One thing I wanted to mention... in the old game when you tell the defense to "attack" , "cover" or "read" it causes a substitution for the defense. For example... If you call "attack" it sends out lineman that specialize in attack defense or if you choose "cover" it sends out defensive backs that specialize in pass coverge. "Read" is kind of like a "normal" defense. And in the old game, when you're on offense you have to choose between "big" "hands" "fast" and "normal". Pretty much self explanatory but its cool to see the subs comming in and out of the game.
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:52 AM   #8
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Re: Gameplay issues, classic Madden and what EA should do with this game....

KillRoy, your post made me think about a couple things.

First of all, back in its "heyday" Madden was basically a fun arcade football game. When 2K sports hit the scene they managed to create a game that was a more accurate simulation while also amazingly being more fun to play. EA saw the writing on the wall and began the slow and painful process of trying to transform Madden into more of a sim, but their engine wasn't built for that which is why the game was a mess for so many years. They were trying to respond to market demand/competition, but were using the wrong engine to do so (this is also why they ultimately went for the option of the exclusive NFL license...they were getting their behinds kicked and knew they had no chance of competing without taking a year off to re-design the engine from the ground up).

Madden was gradually transformed into a hybrid sim/arcade game, that didn't do either very well. Madden 10 is the first version in several years which finally seems to be getting more things right than it gets wrong, and is finally fun to play again. However, what we have here is still FAR, FAR from a true sim.

With that in mind, your complaints are kinda off base...no offense.

1) In terms of a "sim", Madden 10's flat passes are broken. The flat passes are nearly unstoppable, even after the patch. I'm not sure why you are complaining about this since if what you want is the ability to pass into the flats at will, this game supplies that aplenty. It's actually pretty ridiculous how arcadish this feels.

2) In REAL NFL football, sweeps & tosses almost never work because unlike college football, linebackers are much too fast sideline to sideline. Even superhuman speedsters at RB have difficulty turning the corner on sweeps in the real NFL on a consistent basis. If this was not the case you'd see backs like Reggie Bush dominating the league. The reason he's not an every down back even though he has other-worldly speed is because sweeps just don't work all that well in the NFL due to the speed of NFL defenders. So, in terms of sweeps this is one aspect of Madden 10 that is somewhat realistic. Tosses, on the other hand, are totally unrealistic in Madden 10 as they work far more often than not...almost to the point of absurdity.

3) I'm able to avoid the rush fairly consistently in Madden 10 with most mobile QBs. This is actually one of the things the game does well IMHO. When you step up into the pocket, most of the time it feels fairly realistic. There are times when you can "lead" a defender into a blocker by juking back and forth, and that feels a little cheesy. But, all in all, "pocket time" is done pretty well. It is fun to play and most of the time you have between 3-7 seconds to throw the ball, which is fairly realistic (real NFL QBs have to consistently get rid of the ball in 3-4 seconds to be successful).

"Sliding" players...especially QBs...in a modern football game is simply a horrible, horrible idea. Going backwards to superhuman QBs who can "slide" and avoid the pass rush for 10 or 15 seconds so they can throw 50 yard bombs every other play is not a recipe for a good football SIM.

A modern football game needs to provide elements of realism while still being fun to play. Madden 10 does the "fun to play" part pretty well. But it is still not a very good sim. If you want to play purely arcade football, then stick to the old versions. That's what they are made for. You can play Tecmo Bowl if thats what you want. As for me and what I think most gamer/football fans want out of a modern football sim...no thanks.

About the only statement you made that I would agree with is that Madden would benefit from a new engine built from the ground up. However, we don't need a game that mimics the old arcade versions of Madden. We need a game that is a better sim which is still fun to play and has arcade elements, depending on slider usage. As it stands right now, Madden 10 is a sim/arcade hybrid but the sim portion is totally broken and the slider system/stats of the players are mostly window dressing that make virtually no difference to the outcome of the games.
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