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Old 11-05-2009, 08:10 PM   #361
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

It's clear you know alot about football, no doubt, but as it applies to this game I am inclined to disagree. You can EASILY torch the CPU for 400+ passing yards a game by throwing exclusively to the flats. I watched my little brother go somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 for 25 on passing attempts in the second half against the Steelers on sliders that even I was getting killed on in the first half, and I'm much better than he is. I realize there are alot of variables involved in what we're discussing here, but throwing to the flats and calling screens are known money plays until EA updates the coverage/awareness in those zones.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:15 PM   #362
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingking77
Alright... Just to make things clear, cover 2 only refers to where the safeties play. They play 2 deep zones. Cover 3 means that you're now releasing a DB to play a 3rd deep zone... None of these mean that you should have anyone in the flats, so saying the generic cover 2 and cover 3 will stop the flats is false. The Cover 2 and Cover three are simply terms used to describe the safety play. As an example look at the generic Cover 2 in the 43, you'll notice that the two DBs are playing a flats zone, somewhat, and they should be playing a press, which to the best of my knowledge, it looks as though they are. This should slow down a screen just fine, it does for me and I generally play as a DE or DT to start. But it doesn't STOP it, it slows it down. Cover 2 Man Press works better to stop the screen, but it leaves the WRs a bit less covered.

Then if we go to a generic Cover 3, we see that the DBs are now dropping out into deeper zones, while the LBs cover the flats somewhat. The problem is that these are LBs and not generally the best cover guys, so it's a toss up if it works or not... The best bet to beat the screen is Man Press, or Cover 2 with the additional press before the snap. That and being aware enough to know that if it looks like you're getting to the QB to easy that you're getting set up for a screen should be all you need.

After that, there are all kind of containment plays in the 43 defence... I think most playbooks have over 30 plays in there. The containment options are all there, but you have to know your playbook to know what works and what doesn't...

But to simply throw out Cover 2 and Cover 3 is rather funny since they're just generic terms used to again describe the Safety play. As an example, you can have the Dime Cover 2, where the flats are covered, or you can have the Buccs/Bears Cover 2 with the MLB dropping back into a deep zone. But in the end, they're all cover two plays because of the safety play... Just like Quarters means that All DBs are dropping back splitting the secondary into 4 parts...

So with all of that being said, a known issue with the 2k series was that the screen passes didn't work at all since the only way you could get the ball to your back was to lob the ball to him... Trust me on this one, if you look up my other posts you'll see that I'm a huge 2K5 fan, but I admit where there were issues in the game. And when you add in the fact that the screens didn't work, and that they set up their cover 2 a little different, it isn't even a fair issue to discuss.

This entire "screens plays work too well" is all spurred from people playing poor D and exploiting the insane blitz plays in this game, resulting in players simply throwing short... End of story on that... If there were things that could be done against the blitz other then short passes then players would do it, but if you do anything more then slants and screens you get sacked... A lot of the time I see online guys play blitz for two or three downs and expect that like magic, the only time they play a zone or man, they're going to get what they're after. It's a joke and shows how many players rely on the blitz... Because 9/10 if you play against a player who doesn't know how to counter the blitz you're getting your sack. Logic like that results in players expecting that 9/10 times that they play a zone they'll stop everything that comes their way which isn't sim or realistic... It's just sad.

I'm not a huge Madden guy... I'm no genious, but I know football.

P.S. Also, as an issue for the 2K5, 2K allowed you to move your DBs in or out, as well as up or back, which would help, but that's not in this game, so it can't be used as a fix for this year...
Great post IMO SK.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:36 PM   #363
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by adam45h
It's clear you know alot about football, no doubt, but as it applies to this game I am inclined to disagree. You can EASILY torch the CPU for 400+ passing yards a game by throwing exclusively to the flats. I watched my little brother go somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 for 25 on passing attempts in the second half against the Steelers on sliders that even I was getting killed on in the first half, and I'm much better than he is. I realize there are alot of variables involved in what we're discussing here, but throwing to the flats and calling screens are known money plays until EA updates the coverage/awareness in those zones.
And yet I stop people online, I stop the computer, and have had the computer hit me for losses on screens... Perhaps the sliders you have allow for this to happen.
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:40 PM   #364
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingking77
And yet I stop people online, I stop the computer, and have had the computer hit me for losses on screens... Perhaps the sliders you have allow for this to happen.
I'm not saying it's hard to stop; it's certainly not. Good play-calling can certainly blow up any play. I'm just saying it's too easy to burn the CPU by using it against them. My sliders aren't really that in-depth, just moved the "Player Skill" ratings a few notches above All-Pro (I am definitely not a Madden stud). Even in a game I just played I had to stop myself from throwing to Sproles or LT in the flats because it's just not fair to the CPU, it's almost always open and alot of the time they can break a tackle or make a move and get some serious extra yardage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, unless you pick from a very specific set of plays to stop the screen or pass to the flats, it seems to have a higher than normal completion rate and ends up going for more yards than you would typically see in a real game. But like I said, I'm no football guru, and you clearly know alot more about defensive sets than I do. I could absolutely be completely wrong about this! It just seems like it's too easy to take advantage of, like I'm cheating by throwing to anyone in that area.
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Old 11-07-2009, 12:41 AM   #365
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingking77
Alright... Just to make things clear, cover 2 only refers to where the safeties play. They play 2 deep zones. Cover 3 means that you're now releasing a DB to play a 3rd deep zone... None of these mean that you should have anyone in the flats, so saying the generic cover 2 and cover 3 will stop the flats is false. The Cover 2 and Cover three are simply terms used to describe the safety play. As an example look at the generic Cover 2 in the 43, you'll notice that the two DBs are playing a flats zone, somewhat, and they should be playing a press, which to the best of my knowledge, it looks as though they are. This should slow down a screen just fine, it does for me and I generally play as a DE or DT to start. But it doesn't STOP it, it slows it down. Cover 2 Man Press works better to stop the screen, but it leaves the WRs a bit less covered.

Then if we go to a generic Cover 3, we see that the DBs are now dropping out into deeper zones, while the LBs cover the flats somewhat. The problem is that these are LBs and not generally the best cover guys, so it's a toss up if it works or not... The best bet to beat the screen is Man Press, or Cover 2 with the additional press before the snap. That and being aware enough to know that if it looks like you're getting to the QB to easy that you're getting set up for a screen should be all you need.

After that, there are all kind of containment plays in the 43 defence... I think most playbooks have over 30 plays in there. The containment options are all there, but you have to know your playbook to know what works and what doesn't...

But to simply throw out Cover 2 and Cover 3 is rather funny since they're just generic terms used to again describe the Safety play. As an example, you can have the Dime Cover 2, where the flats are covered, or you can have the Buccs/Bears Cover 2 with the MLB dropping back into a deep zone. But in the end, they're all cover two plays because of the safety play... Just like Quarters means that All DBs are dropping back splitting the secondary into 4 parts...

So with all of that being said, a known issue with the 2k series was that the screen passes didn't work at all since the only way you could get the ball to your back was to lob the ball to him... Trust me on this one, if you look up my other posts you'll see that I'm a huge 2K5 fan, but I admit where there were issues in the game. And when you add in the fact that the screens didn't work, and that they set up their cover 2 a little different, it isn't even a fair issue to discuss.

This entire "screens plays work too well" is all spurred from people playing poor D and exploiting the insane blitz plays in this game, resulting in players simply throwing short... End of story on that... If there were things that could be done against the blitz other then short passes then players would do it, but if you do anything more then slants and screens you get sacked... A lot of the time I see online guys play blitz for two or three downs and expect that like magic, the only time they play a zone or man, they're going to get what they're after. It's a joke and shows how many players rely on the blitz... Because 9/10 if you play against a player who doesn't know how to counter the blitz you're getting your sack. Logic like that results in players expecting that 9/10 times that they play a zone they'll stop everything that comes their way which isn't sim or realistic... It's just sad.

I'm not a huge Madden guy... I'm no genious, but I know football.

P.S. Also, as an issue for the 2K5, 2K allowed you to move your DBs in or out, as well as up or back, which would help, but that's not in this game, so it can't be used as a fix for this year...
Yea i know wat cover 2 and 3 means, but my point is that 2k5 new how to shut dwn the flats. i kept tryin to pass it there and the linebacker would bat the ball down or pick it everytime. tried it on madden and that wouldnt happen. even on all madden. so the patch should fix that.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:11 AM   #366
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingking77
Alright... Just to make things clear, cover 2 only refers to where the safeties play. They play 2 deep zones. Cover 3 means that you're now releasing a DB to play a 3rd deep zone... None of these mean that you should have anyone in the flats, so saying the generic cover 2 and cover 3 will stop the flats is false. The Cover 2 and Cover three are simply terms used to describe the safety play. As an example look at the generic Cover 2 in the 43, you'll notice that the two DBs are playing a flats zone, somewhat, and they should be playing a press, which to the best of my knowledge, it looks as though they are. This should slow down a screen just fine, it does for me and I generally play as a DE or DT to start. But it doesn't STOP it, it slows it down. Cover 2 Man Press works better to stop the screen, but it leaves the WRs a bit less covered.

Then if we go to a generic Cover 3, we see that the DBs are now dropping out into deeper zones, while the LBs cover the flats somewhat. The problem is that these are LBs and not generally the best cover guys, so it's a toss up if it works or not... The best bet to beat the screen is Man Press, or Cover 2 with the additional press before the snap. That and being aware enough to know that if it looks like you're getting to the QB to easy that you're getting set up for a screen should be all you need.

After that, there are all kind of containment plays in the 43 defence... I think most playbooks have over 30 plays in there. The containment options are all there, but you have to know your playbook to know what works and what doesn't...

But to simply throw out Cover 2 and Cover 3 is rather funny since they're just generic terms used to again describe the Safety play. As an example, you can have the Dime Cover 2, where the flats are covered, or you can have the Buccs/Bears Cover 2 with the MLB dropping back into a deep zone. But in the end, they're all cover two plays because of the safety play... Just like Quarters means that All DBs are dropping back splitting the secondary into 4 parts...

So with all of that being said, a known issue with the 2k series was that the screen passes didn't work at all since the only way you could get the ball to your back was to lob the ball to him... Trust me on this one, if you look up my other posts you'll see that I'm a huge 2K5 fan, but I admit where there were issues in the game. And when you add in the fact that the screens didn't work, and that they set up their cover 2 a little different, it isn't even a fair issue to discuss.

This entire "screens plays work too well" is all spurred from people playing poor D and exploiting the insane blitz plays in this game, resulting in players simply throwing short... End of story on that... If there were things that could be done against the blitz other then short passes then players would do it, but if you do anything more then slants and screens you get sacked... A lot of the time I see online guys play blitz for two or three downs and expect that like magic, the only time they play a zone or man, they're going to get what they're after. It's a joke and shows how many players rely on the blitz... Because 9/10 if you play against a player who doesn't know how to counter the blitz you're getting your sack. Logic like that results in players expecting that 9/10 times that they play a zone they'll stop everything that comes their way which isn't sim or realistic... It's just sad.

I'm not a huge Madden guy... I'm no genious, but I know football.

P.S. Also, as an issue for the 2K5, 2K allowed you to move your DBs in or out, as well as up or back, which would help, but that's not in this game, so it can't be used as a fix for this year...
Great, great post man. We need more posts like these in the Madden forums. I know football but TBH, there were a few things you mentioned I didn't know. Thanks.
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:47 AM   #367
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingking77
Alright... Just to make things clear, cover 2 only refers to where the safeties play. They play 2 deep zones. Cover 3 means that you're now releasing a DB to play a 3rd deep zone... None of these mean that you should have anyone in the flats, so saying the generic cover 2 and cover 3 will stop the flats is false. The Cover 2 and Cover three are simply terms used to describe the safety play. As an example look at the generic Cover 2 in the 43, you'll notice that the two DBs are playing a flats zone, somewhat, and they should be playing a press, which to the best of my knowledge, it looks as though they are. This should slow down a screen just fine, it does for me and I generally play as a DE or DT to start. But it doesn't STOP it, it slows it down. Cover 2 Man Press works better to stop the screen, but it leaves the WRs a bit less covered.

Then if we go to a generic Cover 3, we see that the DBs are now dropping out into deeper zones, while the LBs cover the flats somewhat. The problem is that these are LBs and not generally the best cover guys, so it's a toss up if it works or not... The best bet to beat the screen is Man Press, or Cover 2 with the additional press before the snap. That and being aware enough to know that if it looks like you're getting to the QB to easy that you're getting set up for a screen should be all you need.

After that, there are all kind of containment plays in the 43 defence... I think most playbooks have over 30 plays in there. The containment options are all there, but you have to know your playbook to know what works and what doesn't...

But to simply throw out Cover 2 and Cover 3 is rather funny since they're just generic terms used to again describe the Safety play. As an example, you can have the Dime Cover 2, where the flats are covered, or you can have the Buccs/Bears Cover 2 with the MLB dropping back into a deep zone. But in the end, they're all cover two plays because of the safety play... Just like Quarters means that All DBs are dropping back splitting the secondary into 4 parts...

So with all of that being said, a known issue with the 2k series was that the screen passes didn't work at all since the only way you could get the ball to your back was to lob the ball to him... Trust me on this one, if you look up my other posts you'll see that I'm a huge 2K5 fan, but I admit where there were issues in the game. And when you add in the fact that the screens didn't work, and that they set up their cover 2 a little different, it isn't even a fair issue to discuss.

This entire "screens plays work too well" is all spurred from people playing poor D and exploiting the insane blitz plays in this game, resulting in players simply throwing short... End of story on that... If there were things that could be done against the blitz other then short passes then players would do it, but if you do anything more then slants and screens you get sacked... A lot of the time I see online guys play blitz for two or three downs and expect that like magic, the only time they play a zone or man, they're going to get what they're after. It's a joke and shows how many players rely on the blitz... Because 9/10 if you play against a player who doesn't know how to counter the blitz you're getting your sack. Logic like that results in players expecting that 9/10 times that they play a zone they'll stop everything that comes their way which isn't sim or realistic... It's just sad.

I'm not a huge Madden guy... I'm no genious, but I know football.

P.S. Also, as an issue for the 2K5, 2K allowed you to move your DBs in or out, as well as up or back, which would help, but that's not in this game, so it can't be used as a fix for this year...
While I agree with you when referring to football terminology, I have to disagree with you when speaking Madden play calling terminology. In Madden whenever a play says "Cover 2" there is always someone covering the flats via a zone. When a play is called "Cover 3" there are always players in flat zone coverage. If the play were man up on the outside it says "Cover 2 man" or "Cover 3 man" and there are many variations of these safety sets as you said, however if the play is called simply "Cover 2" or "Cover 3" there are ALWAYS players covering the flats. Again I am only speaking of Madden language here. I certainly do not disagree with anything you said accept only to point out that when someone says they need to fix "cover 2" or "cover 3", they are most likely speaking of the plays themselves, not the safety sets.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:34 AM   #368
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: 2nd Title Update Preliminary Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by homeycool
While I agree with you when referring to football terminology, I have to disagree with you when speaking Madden play calling terminology. In Madden whenever a play says "Cover 2" there is always someone covering the flats via a zone. When a play is called "Cover 3" there are always players in flat zone coverage. If the play were man up on the outside it says "Cover 2 man" or "Cover 3 man" and there are many variations of these safety sets as you said, however if the play is called simply "Cover 2" or "Cover 3" there are ALWAYS players covering the flats. Again I am only speaking of Madden language here. I certainly do not disagree with anything you said accept only to point out that when someone says they need to fix "cover 2" or "cover 3", they are most likely speaking of the plays themselves, not the safety sets.
Some1 knows wat im talkin about
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