Awareness factor on draft

[P. Hays]

Quote: Originally Posted by jvaccaro

I feel like the OVR rating is just a guage of a bunch of other attributes, and doesn't necessarily dictate player performance in-game.

I agree. When Im signing players I always look at the 4 or so attributes that are specific and important to that position. That's the best way to go about it in Im opinion.

For instance, when signing a WR don't just pick up the best overall but look at catching, route running, speed, ect.

[maademperor]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I don't think it's all that complicated. That CB should be on the WR like glue...unless the WR does a double move. Or the QB does a pump fake. Or perhaps even PA. In otherwords, if the CB can just use basic coverage techniques, he should be very hard to beat. But if the CB has to read/react, then he should have a harder time. A low MCV CB would have a very hard time staying in coverage against all but the basic fly route and have a hard time battling for position/the ball. 99 MCV and 99 AWR would be nearly impossible to fool. He won't bite on much double-moves unless the situation almost made it obvious (would have to set the CB up with a tendency, then work off it - and hope for the best), or he just simply lost a foot race to the ball type of play. That experience factor or "playing above their athleticism" can be exactly what AWR does without really complicating things all that much. I think looking at success/fail as a binary thing regardless of situation is what makes things look (and play) out of whack. If the DE does a speed rush with outside shoulder angle, then he should have a strong advantage right off the snap. If the T gets a hand on him, he can hold him up, unless the DE does a well-timed spin move. If the DE is forced to try a bull rush - that would be less effective (DE has significantly lower STR). If they try a line stunt on that T, then the T has a good chance to read what's happening so he can block the DT that's now rushing outside while the DE can have a good feel of which gap to rush through on his inside pressure. If the DE tried an "out-then-in" rush angle, the AWR of the T should give him a decent chance to hold up. Perhaps the T would end up holding, but might give ground or not hold engagement quite as long (maybe a half-second less). PBF could mean the T won't get called on penalties when he succeeds, or if he has to shift position - it could help him keep his form and technique from breaking down and getting off balance. Again, looking at it from a straight "pass/fail" stand point would make many ratings look/be useless. I think the game is looking at it too much like that than reading the actual situation/position/actions of the players and applying ratings at the right times.

you've got some of what I'm getting at but not quite all of it. we are both not looking for a pass/fail check of one rating against another, my point is that in any and all of these situations, which ratings are being applied and how can any of them be quantified?

the CB example question is to gauge which of those two ratings is actually effective...MCV is supposed to be about how your defender sticks to the reciever, somehow his AWR then comes in and either subtracts or adds to the effectiveness of that rating (or its effect) apparently? what about PRC (Play Recognition) then?

It would be easy to fall into A Perfect Mind type of trap trying to apply all of them, but as I said, the devs have to have a difficult time making a variety of them effective during gameplay and still maintain balance...btw, I am enjoying this exchange, cordial internet banter can be so hard to find

sorry if I got off topic a little OP

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by maademperor

the CB example question is to gauge which of those two ratings is actually effective...MCV is supposed to be about how your defender sticks to the reciever, somehow his AWR then comes in and either subtracts or adds to the effectiveness of that rating (or its effect) apparently? what about PRC (Play Recognition) then?

AWR didn't subtract from MCV. It determines how well the player can apply his MCV techniques in various situations.

Consider that last throw in the game last night. Wayne sold the fade and broke it off into a slant. He had high RTE and AWR (he knew what the CB was trying on him and used it). The CB still had good coverage (good MCV), but he bit on the fake move enough to give up inside position and have no chance on defending the pass.

That's a real life example of what I mean. AWR didn't "subtract" from his coverage ability, but it pulled him out of position enough to where he couldn't defend the perfect throw. He was still all over Wayne.

PRC could be used in reading if it's a run or pass. So high PRC wouldn't let the CB get run off on a dummy route. It could allow him to see if it's a screen or not. If he's set to blitz and reads screen, he could break off the blitz so he doesn't get run right into a OL escort. PRC could also have been used to help the player recognize tendencies (I know it doesn't in the game now, but that's what it could be used for).

AWR and PRC are "mental" ratings (part of his football IQ) that help determine if the player is in position when he uses his "technical" or "physical" skills like MCV or CTH, etc.

[kcarr]

Quote: Originally Posted by maademperor

honestly, its ratings like these that probably make it hard for the devs to make the game play well...there is so many factors that the game has to compare and calculate on the fly that its no wonder we see jacked up blocking and d-linemen that dont even begin to consistently get after the qb. does a cb with 99mcv but 50 awr get beat in MCV or not? if both are 99 should be be like a second skin?

In the coverage example there should be more that goes into it than those couple mentioned. Acceleration, speed, agility, and play recognition for the corner really need to come into play and also you have to look at the wrs route running, speed, acceleration, agility, and the situation that this is happening in.

MCV should determine how well he reads the route and sticks with his man. AWR should determine how well he anticipates double moves, pump fakes, etc, play recognition should determine reactions to play action although not much in man coverage unless it is a complete running situation and this rating is really low and the opposing qbs rating in play action is really high, agility should determine how fast he stops and turns, acceleration should determine how fast he gets back up to speed, speed should determine his ability to keep up in a footrace with the WR going to the ball or recovering from getting beat.

Therefore if a guy has high MCV, low AWR, and matches up well in the rest he will keep up really well against most routes but if the offense mixes up single and double moves really well and doesn't play completely to tendencies then this player will get tricked some times.

If a player has great awareness but weak MCV then he will not get fooled as easily meaning you won't have those wide open plays caused by his mistakes but if the reciever is a good route runner they will constantly get good seperation allowing them to make a lot of catches coming out of their breaks unless the reciever has great acceleration and agility to recover and make the hit or great skills reacting to the ball in the air (need a rating to determine this in my opinion) and can get in and make the play on the ball.

If the player is weak in acceleration then coming out of the break the WR should gain seperation, if he has great acceleration he should cut down the seperation coming out. If he has weak agility then he should overrun before the cut being less able to stop affecting him on every cut allowing more seperation. Man coverage can limit this as they will start to stop and turn faster but you really need both. Great agility will allow the guy to keep up no matter what but if his MCV is weak then he still won't react as quickly. Speed should really only come into play when the players are running near top speed and in a race to the ball or to a spot.

As for the catch ratings I don't know exactly how they are programmed but it should work like this. Catch should be the base rating determining whether the catch will be made. If the pass is off target and the guy has to jump, dive, try to make a one handed catch, go to the ground to catch it, if the ball is tipped and they have to track it while in air, etc then spectacular catch should determine how much the added difficulty affects the results. Also, there needs to be more catch animations available to those with higher ratings in this area. Catch in traffic needs to be split into catch in traffic and catch while hit. Catch in traffic should determine how much other players in the area affect the catch. Also, it should give more animations where they reach up among other players to make catches or make catches where they are fighting with another player for the ball. Catch while hit should affect how much the player getting hit will affect the catch success rate. Where awareness should come into play for a WR is reading coverages and making correct reads on option routes and being aware of players coming to hit them making them more able to avoid contact either by going to the ground or moving slightly one way or the other as well as awareness of the sideline making sideline catches.

Quote: Originally Posted by maademperor

example- DE with 80 speed/75 strength/90 finesse move and 80 awr VS Tackle with 69 speed/90 strenth/85 pass blocking/90 pass blocking footwork and 80 awr. who is going to win here and how do you determine it? which of those ratings is going to cause the outcome and if its a combination of all them the game has to perform this for every blocker/rusher still factor in home field advantage, weather and penalties. ditto for safeties/cbs on thier coverage, HB to figure out break tackle/trucking/elusiveness/spin/stiff arm and WR with thier various catch ratings...we now have Catch, Spectacular Catch (dont even know what this is) and Catch in traffic along with RouteRunning. in case you are wondering why I wrote all that, i just felt like typing cause i want to keep smoking this stogie instead of going inside

In the DE vs OT example there are more ratings that need to be figured in. Once again acceleration and agility should be figured as well as pass rush strength and power moves.

If the DE splits wide and speed rushes around the end then it should be his acceleration and maybe a little of his speed determining his ability to beat the tackle to the corner. The tackle's ratings countering this should be his acceleration, agility, awareness, and pass block footwork, as well as maybe a little from speed. His agility and footwork should work similar to in coverage determining his ability to move laterally to the spot. His acceleration and speed may come into play some but since this is more lateral and backwards movement it should be more based on agility and footwork. His awareness will just determine his ability to read who all is coming and select the right guy to pick up so if there are others coming from the same side with low awareness he may get confused.

If the DE wins going to the spot then he will have the edge going around the corner. If the tackle has good pass block strength and can get his hands on him he may be able to slow him but the DEs strength would have to be much less for this to truly work. If the tackle has bad footwork here he may get into bad position and be more likely to get a penalty. Here speed will also maybe come into play depending on how much recovering needs to happen.

If the tackle wins getting to the spot then they will be engaged and it will be up to the DE to make another move to beat him. Also, this will put the tackle in a position where his impact block could be used to knock the DE back a little.

If they tie to the spot then that is also basically a win for the tackle as they will still be engaged. He may not have the great position he had before but he is still in solid position.

Now that they are engaged if the DE makes a move it is his finesse moves(really needs to be seperate rating for each move) and maybe agility against the tackles footwork(ability to move to stay in front), awareness(ability to anticipate the move) and pass block strength (ability to if the DE gets a little bit of a step keep the DE from using that step to push him back)

While engaged strength and the angles at which and from which they are pushing should determine whether or not the interaction is moves and at what rate it is moved. As tackles usually will beat most pass rushing DEs here this will force DEs to make moves to try to beat the tackle.

When bull rushing it should be the power moves and strength of the DE against the pass block strength and strength of the tackle. This should be done in the same way as I described with the catch ratings with strength being the base and a pass block strength vs power moves determining the ability to get low and get leverage adjusting the effectiveness of the strength ratings.

[GlennN]

What you folks are writing is very interesting, as to how the ratings of the players should interact. My question is whether you actually see these things happening in Madden 10. Playing just offline franchise, I really want ratings to matter. As someone (I think maademperor) said above, maybe fewer ratings would be better in the sense that the game could then calculate play results (or more like, individfual interactions) more easily using the ratings.

[kcarr]

Quote: Originally Posted by GlennN

What you folks are writing is very interesting, as to how the ratings of the players should interact. My question is whether you actually see these things happening in Madden 10. Playing just offline franchise, I really want ratings to matter. As someone (I think maademperor) said above, maybe fewer ratings would be better in the sense that the game could then calculate play results (or more like, individfual interactions) more easily using the ratings.

No, they are not to the point of having ratings interact like that yet. A lot of this is due to people wanting their "stick skills" to overpower ratings which basically makes personnel management and really offline franchise in general basically a joke. What I was listing is what those ratings would handle if they were actually trying to create a simulation of football. I don't feel they are really trying to accomplish that but that as a lot of the stuff they can't seem to figure out that would really help the game in terms of realism, like what ratings are needed and how they should interact, are things that I could for the most part figure out with my limited programming experience and yet with all their manpower and experience they can't seem to figure it out.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by kcarr

No, they are not to the point of having ratings interact like that yet. A lot of this is due to people wanting their "stick skills" to overpower ratings which basically makes personnel management and really offline franchise in general basically a joke.

Exactly.

The neverending battle between making player abilities mean something while also "rewarding" good stick skills, which then leads to cries of cheese or guys playing way beyond their skills.

I'm sure there's a middle ground somewhere...supposedly lower skill makes it harder to be as good, but even then, after a while stick skills get better so it's like a never ending cycle.

[kcarr]

I for one am of the opinion that stick skills should mainly only control decision making of the player being controlled. It should determine which action is attempted but ratings should determine the success or failure of the action. If you want to take reggie bush and try to run everyone over with him he should try to run them over but get knocked on his @$$ more often than not. If you want to put a corner at DE due to his speed then fine but the tackle should recognize the speed player there and tend to move outside to stop the speed rush giving him a first step and a better angle to get there. The player controlling the corner then should be unable to use any moves with any sort of success due to the corner more than likely having pretty low finesse move, power move, and strength ratings. There are more examples that could be mentioned but you probably get the idea.

What should seperate good players from average players is using their players correctly, good decision making on the field, good playcalling, and good adjustments.