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2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

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Poll: What's more important to you, when the time comes to purchase a game? (Click to vote)
View Poll Results: Which Ratings System Would You Prefer?
APF 2k8 32 36.78%
Madden's same old # system 30 34.48%
Other(Combine #s, Physical(Height + Weight = Strength, etc)etc. 25 28.74%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-24-2009, 12:48 AM   #33
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Numbers that I can see, I don't like guess work.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:51 AM   #34
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

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Originally Posted by kcarr
Not so much. If ratings become the truly determining factor then it brings up a couple problems for them. First off, it makes their "stick skills" less valuable so then strategy and matchups come more into play. This means that despite the hundreds of hours they put in perfecting their timing they wouldn't be really be any better at the game than those who play occasionally, enough to know the buttons, but have a much better knowledge of football and an equal knowledge of the players on their roster and the opposing roster. Also, ratings bring into play a lot more randomness that cannot be controlled by the user.
You made some good points, but let me play devils advocate. For every user out there with superb stick skills, there's an opponent that he's abusing with his stick skills. Making offense harder, makes playing defense easier.

My theory on online/tourney style players is that they simply want to win by any means neccessary. X's and O's aren't what wins in Madden 10, or any previous version; it's stick skills and exploits. The kiddies just want to climb the leader boards. Sure, some of them will get discouraged and move onto other games, but for every disgruntled online/tourney style player there will be a delighted sim gamer happy to take their place.

Here's some food for thought. Other sports genres are getting more realistic by the year; Madden however, isn't. If arcadey, unrealistic play was what ultimately sold video games, these titles from other genres would be moving in that direction. Clearly, they are not. That shows that realism is desired; the game with the most realistic game play,providing the publisher owns the license, is the one that will sell the most.

Having the trademarks, and the likeness of the players that are in the league or sport that the particular game is simulating, is a big part of the realism that fans desire. It's clearly the biggests or publishers wouldn't pay millions for licenses, exclusive or not, to begin with.

EA took advantage of this and purchased the exclusive license. Since only they(EA) can use NFL teams and players, they don't really need the most realistic game play to sell copies of Madden. It's far easier to make an arcadey version of a game with NFL teams in it. There's more margin for error, everything doesn't have to make sense. Things that you don't see on sundays can occur in the game; as long as it's fun for the online/tourney crowd, the game will sell.

There are two aspects of realism for a sports simulation, the game play and the players in the game. Having the actual teams, players and coaches are significantly more important to the majority of consumers, than how realistic the game play is. In all Honesty, a lot of gamers don't have a firm grasp of what realistic football is suppose to be like.

Last edited by Dmacho; 11-24-2009 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:35 PM   #35
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

See, there is a fundamental difference between these sim style gamers and these arcade style gamers though.

Arcade style gamers along with most casual gamers are playing this game more because it is a popular game than for the "football" aspect of the game. Therefore if the game goes too far away from their style and disgruntles them too much then there is the chance that madden could lose sales. The sim gamers on the other hand will stick to buying madden just because it is the only pro football game available. We are, as a group, probably much smaller and mush less likely to quit purchasing.

As for other games, I haven't played this year's live but going off of the last couple years I don't think it moved too far in the sim direction. 2K continues to and EA will move somewhat in that direction because the fact that 2k has a game out there gives them some competition over us sim style games. This leaves balance between the need to truly please both sim gamers and arcade style gamers. With the lack of competition madden does not have those same requirements.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:42 PM   #36
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcarr
See, there is a fundamental difference between these sim style gamers and these arcade style gamers though.

Arcade style gamers along with most casual gamers are playing this game more because it is a popular game than for the "football" aspect of the game. Therefore if the game goes too far away from their style and disgruntles them too much then there is the chance that madden could lose sales. The sim gamers on the other hand will stick to buying madden just because it is the only pro football game available. We are, as a group, probably much smaller and mush less likely to quit purchasing.

As for other games, I haven't played this year's live but going off of the last couple years I don't think it moved too far in the sim direction. 2K continues to and EA will move somewhat in that direction because the fact that 2k has a game out there gives them some competition over us sim style games. This leaves balance between the need to truly please both sim gamers and arcade style gamers. With the lack of competition madden does not have those same requirements.
What distinguishes the the casual and online/tourney style players from sim gamers is knowlegde. Sim gamers are more knowledgeable about the game of football. So when they see that something that's unrealistic, is effective, it bothers them. The casual gamers don't care, because they don't notice.

Popularity is a huge part of a sports game's appeal. It's the reason that companies pay for licenses. Having a sports game play more realistically will never hurt a game's sales. The popularity of the sports leagues is what sells sports games. Gameplay comes into play when there is compeitition and the consumer has a choice.

People play Madden because of the popularity of the NFL, period. The casual gamers won't go anywhere if the game gets more sim. The developement team obviously tried to make the game more sim this year, unfourtunately, there were a myriad of hiccups. If making the game more "sim" would drive people away, I doubt EA would try to go in that direction.
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Old 11-25-2009, 02:51 PM   #37
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

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Originally Posted by Dmacho
What distinguishes the the casual and online/tourney style players from sim gamers is knowlegde. Sim gamers are more knowledgeable about the game of football. So when they see that something that's unrealistic, is effective, it bothers them. The casual gamers don't care, because they don't notice.

Popularity is a huge part of a sports game's appeal. It's the reason that companies pay for licenses. Having a sports game play more realistically will never hurt a game's sales. The popularity of the sports leagues is what sells sports games. Gameplay comes into play when there is compeitition and the consumer has a choice.

People play Madden because of the popularity of the NFL, period. The casual gamers won't go anywhere if the game gets more sim. The developement team obviously tried to make the game more sim this year, unfourtunately, there were a myriad of hiccups. If making the game more "sim" would drive people away, I doubt EA would try to go in that direction.
If it gets more "realistic" in the manner it did this year, adding more accesories and slowing down the game a little and making other such small changes, then yeah it won't drive people off.

However, casual gamers tend to want to be able to win with their favorite team regardless of what that team is. most online gamers and tourney gamers and anyone else who doesn't fit into that real "sim" group wants their stick skills to overpower ratings. Really, pretty much every other than franchise players and a few others would rather not have ratings be the major distinguishing factor. Even on this site with such a high concentration of sim gamers as we have there have still been arguements on here as to whether or not ratings should overpower stick skills. While I agree that ratings need to matter more how often do you see someone on here say that their quarterback should never randomly make a bad throw just because of ratings when they "used their stick skills to make a perfect pass" which apparently takes way more than just pushing some button.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:11 PM   #38
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcarr
If it gets more "realistic" in the manner it did this year, adding more accesories and slowing down the game a little and making other such small changes, then yeah it won't drive people off.

However, casual gamers tend to want to be able to win with their favorite team regardless of what that team is. most online gamers and tourney gamers and anyone else who doesn't fit into that real "sim" group wants their stick skills to overpower ratings. Really, pretty much every other than franchise players and a few others would rather not have ratings be the major distinguishing factor. Even on this site with such a high concentration of sim gamers as we have there have still been arguements on here as to whether or not ratings should overpower stick skills. While I agree that ratings need to matter more how often do you see someone on here say that their quarterback should never randomly make a bad throw just because of ratings when they "used their stick skills to make a perfect pass" which apparently takes way more than just pushing some button.
That sort of defeats the purpose of a sports game. Certian teams are better that others. I'm sure that most gamers "Sim" or not, wouldn't be thrilled if it was just as easy win with the Raiders, as it is with the Saints.

Making ratings matter more won't make stick skill obsolete. The ratings for the defensives players will matter also. So if you've got great sticks skills, and you're controlling Darren Sproles, if someone is controlling a LB, they've got no chance.

It may even draw them into franchise mode; they could draft,scout and sign players that will help them take advantage of their superior stick skills.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:33 PM   #39
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

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That sort of defeats the purpose of a sports game. Certian teams are better that others. I'm sure that most gamers "Sim" or not, wouldn't be thrilled if it was just as easy win with the Raiders, as it is with the Saints.

Making ratings matter more won't make stick skill obsolete. The ratings for the defensives players will matter also. So if you've got great sticks skills, and you're controlling Darren Sproles, if someone is controlling a LB, they've got no chance.

It may even draw them into franchise mode; they could draft,scout and sign players that will help them take advantage of their superior stick skills.
Now, there was a time that I, like you do now, could see no way that people would be against the idea of adding realism to a game. However, look back through some old posts and you will see several examples even on here. For example in one of the threads about the blogs about the features of the game Ian mentioned that it would be very hard to take detroit and beat pittsburg when both players had equal stick skills due to ratings meaning more in the game.

This was met mostly by people aplauding this but also there were people who were very upset at this and argued that if they had even stick skills then really the win/loss ratio between the 2 teams should be pretty much even and if the player with detroit had better stick skills he should win a majority of the time.

Look at any thread mentioning the possibility of adding in mistakes such as QBs throwing innaccurate passes. While most people think this is a good idea there are always some who say that if they choose the right reciever to throw to and make a good read then a good pass should be made every time.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:41 PM   #40
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

I think APF's rating system is more complex than M10's. They take into account intangibles along with physical abilities like M10. Abilities characterize an athlete better than numbers in my opinion. Abilities like "workhorse", "clutch", and "tough as nails" are very cool to see in a game and I have a better ability relating an athlete to those things than "76 run block footwork" and "65 zone cover".

Don't get me wrong, both systems work, I just prefer one.
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