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2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

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Poll: What's more important to you, when the time comes to purchase a game? (Click to vote)
View Poll Results: Which Ratings System Would You Prefer?
APF 2k8 32 36.78%
Madden's same old # system 30 34.48%
Other(Combine #s, Physical(Height + Weight = Strength, etc)etc. 25 28.74%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-25-2009, 09:26 PM   #41
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Does anyone here honestly believe that making Madden more realistic would hurt sales in any group? I seriously doubt that an increase in realism would negatively impact sales!!!

The tourney crowd is really an insignificant percentage of M10 gamers, the online crowd is completely dwarfed by even the casual gamer who only plays the game when his buddies are over, and that group is tiny compared to the vast number of people who spend countless hours playing franchise mode, tweaking sliders, and begging for more realistic game-play!

I have lost tons of Madden buddies in this current gen of consoles because of the lack of realism - sprint on the trigger - the way players move (although the graphics are better the players movements in the game are jagged and unrefined) - despite the addition of ProTak you still get guys morphing out of the way of tackles or standing around watching the ball carrier break out of situations where they shouldn't and on and on and on!

I have a group of Madden guys who would rather play on PS2 just because the player movements are smoother and appear more fluid and life like, the removal of cut-moves and the very real feeling that you have no control over DL moves, then you add in all the stuff they screwed up moving to this gen and my PS3 has been reduced to a glorified PS2 with Blu-Ray capabilities.

Add in that this years' PS2 version has sideline catches, players seemingly more aware of the sidelines when yards are available - ie not running out of bounds - and the fact that the franchise mode is still better on last gen and what is the motivation for them to spend the bones to get into this gen???

Realism = better sales! I would bet my whole salary for a year that if they made no "new features" , put the last gen control layout back in, smooth out the player movements, and made the game play more of a chess game, and made the franchise mode improvements we beg for every year - the sales for M11 would break every video game sales record ever!

EA has lost more customers on this gen than they have gained for Madden, that is very evident to me just in my circle of friends that once included about 30 serious Madden gamers - of which about four of us still play regularly!
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:34 AM   #42
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreatineKasey
I think APF's rating system is more complex than M10's. They take into account intangibles along with physical abilities like M10. Abilities characterize an athlete better than numbers in my opinion. Abilities like "workhorse", "clutch", and "tough as nails" are very cool to see in a game and I have a better ability relating an athlete to those things than "76 run block footwork" and "65 zone cover".

Don't get me wrong, both systems work, I just prefer one.
Madden has the tools in their system to take into account intangibles and physical abilities as much or more than APFs system. I actually prefer 2k8s system to the current madden one but don't think that is the best way to go. I will agree that there needs to be a clutch rating but the workhorse rating could easily be shown by having more stamina than most other players as it will allow your player to become better in comparison. The problem is the stamina and durability ratings really need to be spread out accross the board making more seperation.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:38 AM   #43
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boregard
Does anyone here honestly believe that making Madden more realistic would hurt sales in any group? I seriously doubt that an increase in realism would negatively impact sales!!!

The tourney crowd is really an insignificant percentage of M10 gamers, the online crowd is completely dwarfed by even the casual gamer who only plays the game when his buddies are over, and that group is tiny compared to the vast number of people who spend countless hours playing franchise mode, tweaking sliders, and begging for more realistic game-play!

I have lost tons of Madden buddies in this current gen of consoles because of the lack of realism - sprint on the trigger - the way players move (although the graphics are better the players movements in the game are jagged and unrefined) - despite the addition of ProTak you still get guys morphing out of the way of tackles or standing around watching the ball carrier break out of situations where they shouldn't and on and on and on!

I have a group of Madden guys who would rather play on PS2 just because the player movements are smoother and appear more fluid and life like, the removal of cut-moves and the very real feeling that you have no control over DL moves, then you add in all the stuff they screwed up moving to this gen and my PS3 has been reduced to a glorified PS2 with Blu-Ray capabilities.

Add in that this years' PS2 version has sideline catches, players seemingly more aware of the sidelines when yards are available - ie not running out of bounds - and the fact that the franchise mode is still better on last gen and what is the motivation for them to spend the bones to get into this gen???

Realism = better sales! I would bet my whole salary for a year that if they made no "new features" , put the last gen control layout back in, smooth out the player movements, and made the game play more of a chess game, and made the franchise mode improvements we beg for every year - the sales for M11 would break every video game sales record ever!

EA has lost more customers on this gen than they have gained for Madden, that is very evident to me just in my circle of friends that once included about 30 serious Madden gamers - of which about four of us still play regularly!
You honestly think the crowd that plays strictly offline franchise and spends hours trying to tweak the game to get it perfect are really the vast majority of gamers? That may be the case on here but not throughout the spectrum of buyers.

While I will agree that realism in some areas such as movement and really any visual area will never hurt sales. Realism in these areas does nothing but help but there have been threads on here where people have argued that there is such a thing as too much realism and have even argued against increased realism in future madden games.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:21 AM   #44
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcarr
Madden has the tools in their system to take into account intangibles and physical abilities as much or more than APFs system. I actually prefer 2k8s system to the current madden one but don't think that is the best way to go. I will agree that there needs to be a clutch rating but the workhorse rating could easily be shown by having more stamina than most other players as it will allow your player to become better in comparison. The problem is the stamina and durability ratings really need to be spread out accross the board making more seperation.

I don't believe there should be a clutch rating. Chances are all it will do is make the comeback AI make its return (assuming it's gone) when facing a "clutch player".

Plus, how would you rate someone in this? What defines a "50 clutch" player vs a "60 clutch" player?

Your example with "workhorse" is why I don't understand the real difference in the two. What's the difference between a few players being 95+ Stamina and a few players being labeled as "workhorse"?

To me, the important thing about Madden's ratings aren't whether they are shows as words or numbers, but they that they, as you said, are more spread out to show a true difference/distinction in talent, and of course that difference actually means something in gameplay.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:40 AM   #45
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boregard
Does anyone here honestly believe that making Madden more realistic would hurt sales in any group? I seriously doubt that an increase in realism would negatively impact sales!!!

The tourney crowd is really an insignificant percentage of M10 gamers, the online crowd is completely dwarfed by even the casual gamer who only plays the game when his buddies are over, and that group is tiny compared to the vast number of people who spend countless hours playing franchise mode, tweaking sliders, and begging for more realistic game-play!

I have lost tons of Madden buddies in this current gen of consoles because of the lack of realism - sprint on the trigger - the way players move (although the graphics are better the players movements in the game are jagged and unrefined) - despite the addition of ProTak you still get guys morphing out of the way of tackles or standing around watching the ball carrier break out of situations where they shouldn't and on and on and on!

I have a group of Madden guys who would rather play on PS2 just because the player movements are smoother and appear more fluid and life like, the removal of cut-moves and the very real feeling that you have no control over DL moves, then you add in all the stuff they screwed up moving to this gen and my PS3 has been reduced to a glorified PS2 with Blu-Ray capabilities.

Add in that this years' PS2 version has sideline catches, players seemingly more aware of the sidelines when yards are available - ie not running out of bounds - and the fact that the franchise mode is still better on last gen and what is the motivation for them to spend the bones to get into this gen???

Realism = better sales! I would bet my whole salary for a year that if they made no "new features" , put the last gen control layout back in, smooth out the player movements, and made the game play more of a chess game, and made the franchise mode improvements we beg for every year - the sales for M11 would break every video game sales record ever!

EA has lost more customers on this gen than they have gained for Madden, that is very evident to me just in my circle of friends that once included about 30 serious Madden gamers - of which about four of us still play regularly!
The tourney crowd may not be that big, but you're way off base if you think that the bulk of madden players are off line franchise guys. If that werer the case, don't you think they'd pay more attention to the franchise mode. The franchise mode in last gen is still superior. There's no draft info; putting a player on injured reserve is pointles; the player still takes up a roster spot, we still don't have extended rosters for the preseason and we don't have active rosters limits. The actual limit is 53 and the game day roster is 45. Also, why do we have postion requirements. Why do I have to have a certian number of WRs or RBs. In the NFL you can field a team with 53 kickers if you like.

The bulk of the Madden consumer base is made up of casual fans who play with there friends and online gamers. Offline franchise are but a very small fraction of the fan base.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:42 AM   #46
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Well, with all the work that EA puts into all the player ratings, my opinion is then to get rid of the sliders and put in a player editor. If ratings are suppose to determine how the game plays out per ratings, then their shouldn't be sliders. I'm still not confident in player ratings, that's why we have to adjust sliders.

Sliders/Ratings: I going crazy over this.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:28 PM   #47
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

What may have seperated one player from the next in 2k8 was the fact that some players had more abilities than others. It was more simplistic; the simplicity in my speculation is what makes it superior and more practical when compared to Madden's system.

In my opinion, EA needs to take a page out of 2k8's book and simplify the rating system. Some of these ratings seem serve the same purpose. We have run blocking strength, pass blocking strength as well as strength; WHAT FOR ! Shouldn't the strength rating be enough? We have agility and elusivesness, why ? We have awareness and play recognition; that's the same difference ! We've got breaking tackles and trucking; that's the same thing !We've got pass blocking and run blocking footwork and agility; again, what for ?

Think about it like mixure of colors. You can use many different combos of 2 colors and get vastly different results from each combo. If you try to create different colors with combos of 6 or 7 colors, the results more often that not, will end up being different shades of brown.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:46 PM   #48
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Re: 2k8's Ratings or Maddens old number system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
It was more simplistic; the simplicity in my speculation is what makes it superior and more practical when compared to Madden's system.
I think Madden's problem is that the ratings are all too high. There's so many 80s and 90s guys as if every player in the NFL is above average. Or if 80 is "Average" then 90+ doesn't stand out as much.

If average players were in the 60s and elite players were in the 90s then I bet there would be more distinction (assuming ratings mattered as much as they should)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
In my opinion, EA needs to take a page out of 2k8's book and simplify the rating system. Some of these ratings seem serve the same purpose. We have run blocking strength, pass blocking strength as well as strength; WHAT FOR !
Strength could be for things like comparing holding on to the ball vs ripping out the ball. A weak back vs a strong DT trying to strip the ball should be an advantage for the DT.

Also, raw physical strength and the ability to get and maintain leverage on engagement (run/pass blocking) are two different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
Shouldn't the strength rating be enough? We have agility and elusivesness, why ?
Agility is the ability to make cuts. It should matter more with change in direction.

Elusiveness is probably the "break tackle" rating modified by the moves a back has. Kind of like "finesse moves" vs "power moves"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
We have awareness and play recognition; that's the same difference !
No it's not.

Play Recognition is reading keys. For example, a DL with good PRC could detect the OL setting up a screen an not getting sucked in. A DB with good PRC could see that the WR are trying to get a rub and not get sucked into it.

Awareness is for things like finding holes in zones (PRC would be recognizing that the defense is using zone coverage, or reading blitz and who's blitzing and adjusting your route accordingly), timing your jump or using your hands to bat down the ball at the right time. Awareness is turning and looking for the ball in man coverage or being able to react to the intentionally underthrown pass.

You don't have to read the play to turn and find the ball. Or to time your jump at the highest point of the catch, or to get your hands up as a DT to bad down the pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
We've got breaking tackles and trucking; that's the same thing
No it's not. Trucking as move - a type of breaking tackles. Breaking tackles is the ability of the back to do it successfully. There's many ways to break tackles, the moves ratings try to set up how the back is best able to do it so every back just doesn't spin, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
!We've got pass blocking and run blocking footwork and agility; again, what for ?
Again, agility is changing directions, like cuts. You don't need to make cuts to pass block, you need to be able to keep your balance and make subtle shifts and maintain your base in doring so. That's what the footwork is (or should be) for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
Think about it like mixure of colors. You can use many different combos of 2 colors and get vastly different results from each combo. If you try to create different colors with combos of 6 or 7 colors, the results more often that not, will end up being different shades of brown.
Except most ratings probably are, or should be, used in combos of 2 or 3 when determining the result of any given move/engagement/interaction.



I don't have a problem with Madden's rating set up. I see it as trying to flesh out players as a difference of individual football skills. Real life players, even two who are of the same effectiveness are equally effective for different reasons, creating situations where one player might have the upper hand but be weaker in other situations. Coaching/play calling is then trying to exploit the weaknesses as you find them and minimizing your own if at all possible.

Madden is trying to capture that, but when the ratings don't make enough impact to begin with, then it falls apart.

If Madden had only 5 ratings, it wouldn't be any better if the only one of those 5 that has serious impact is speed.

That's where the real issue lies, imo. Not that there's 10+ ratings, but only about 2 or 3 of them really impact things on a significant and consistent basis.

Last edited by KBLover; 11-30-2009 at 01:51 PM.
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