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Old 11-30-2009, 12:01 PM   #33
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

The only weapon that did anything was the smart one which would allow a user to see opponent plays. Also, when they brought weapons in they limited the areas in which you could train your player which I really didn't like. That meant if I had a good back with some fumble problems I couldn't work on improving his carrying ability. Speed, however, could be increased easier than anything else.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:22 PM   #34
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcarr
With any game there has to be numbers. While 2k8 didn't show the numbers they were still there in the background although I would imagine they were more simplistic than madden's just from what I could tell playing the game. While more simplistic, however, they did a much better job of basing the game play off of them.

Madden's weapon system way mostly a failure due to it the ratings still not playing into to actual gameplay to any real extent.
What makes you so sure that a game's rating system has to be based on numbers. For all we know, what seperated one player from the next, in 2k8, was the fact that some players had more abilities than others. It was more simplistic; the simplicity in my speculation is what makes it superior and more practical when compared to Madden's system.

In my opinion, EA needs to take a page out of 2k8's book and simplify the rating system. Some of these ratings seem serve the same purpose. We have run blocking strength, pass blocking strength as well as strength; WHAT FOR ! Shouldn't the strength rating be enough? We have agility and elusivesness, why ? We have awareness and play recognition; that's the same difference ! We've got breaking tackles and trucking; that's the same thing !We've got pass blocking and run blocking footwork and agility; again, what for ?

Think about it like mixure of colors. You can use many different combos of 2 colors and get vastly different results from each combo. If you try to create different colors with combos of 6 or 7 colors, the results more often that not, will end up being different shades of brown.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:55 PM   #35
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

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Originally Posted by Tito78
What makes you so sure that a game's rating system has to be based on numbers. For all we know, what seperated one player from the next, in 2k8, was the fact that some players had more abilities than others. It was more simplistic; the simplicity in my speculation is what makes it superior and more practical when compared to Madden's system.
So how does a computer animate the players and determine the result of plays without using any numbers at all? How does it know how fast to animate one player over another if neither has any speed boosting abilities? How would it know to make a WR run faster than a DT if there were no ratings for speed?

One may have more abilities than others, but how does the computer know how much to make one player better than the other that doesn't have such-and-such ability? Are all players with the same ability equally effective? If not, how does the computer differentiate between the players without ratings?

How would the computer determine which player has the advantage and by how much if there were no numbers at all behind the words?
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:58 PM   #36
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcarr
The only weapon that did anything was the smart one which would allow a user to see opponent plays. Also, when they brought weapons in they limited the areas in which you could train your player which I really didn't like. That meant if I had a good back with some fumble problems I couldn't work on improving his carrying ability. Speed, however, could be increased easier than anything else.

Actually, it could have worked for separating players if this was the only method of progression. For example, 10 players could have 90 speed, but 2 of them have a speed weapon. Those two could get to 99, but the others are "stuck" at 90 (before they declined). When declining starts, the "weapon players" could keep training.

Of course, I don't think they went that far with it, but it was a start. But, as usual, instead of developing a feature and growing it, they cut it.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:58 PM   #37
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

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Originally Posted by Tito78
What makes you so sure that a game's rating system has to be based on numbers. For all we know, what seperated one player from the next, in 2k8, was the fact that some players had more abilities than others. It was more simplistic; the simplicity in my speculation is what makes it superior and more practical when compared to Madden's system.

In my opinion, EA needs to take a page out of 2k8's book and simplify the rating system. Some of these ratings seem serve the same purpose. We have run blocking strength, pass blocking strength as well as strength; WHAT FOR ! Shouldn't the strength rating be enough? We have agility and elusivesness, why ? We have awareness and play recognition; that's the same difference ! We've got breaking tackles and trucking; that's the same thing !We've got pass blocking and run blocking footwork and agility; again, what for ?

Think about it like mixure of colors. You can use many different combos of 2 colors and get vastly different results from each combo. If you try to create different colors with combos of 6 or 7 colors, the results more often that not, will end up being different shades of brown.
We know they have numbers because every game engine requires data to be used to perform its actions. It could have been as simple as a player having a 1-4 in a given rating. At level 1 they had basic abilities. At level 2 they perform regular actions. At level 3 they perform advanced actions. And finally at level 4 they are experts and make those eye popping actions.

The difference between madden and 2k8 is madden instead of saying 1-4 they have 40-99. Everyone issue is that madden doesnt have enough animations to properly represent the elite from the scrubs and people have formed an erroneous belief that 2k8 was more complex/better because of the game play. From the franchise perspective,(considering players are rating 1-4 with 2k8 and madden has 40-99) 2k8 is on an elementary level and madden is in high school.

You say that the game needs to simplify its ratings and move to a 2k8 set but how would you have progression work?

Here is an idea of what madden could do with adding in a "weapons system"/adding more ratings for more abilities.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...coach-m11.html

If more animations were added in that way then the game would become extremely more complex and realistic.

Your issue with some of the ratings being redundant is fair. I have another idea of how to make some of the ratings matter more and make the game more realistic. This would allow for strong players who dont know how to properly use their strength perform accordingly.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...c-ratings.html

Specifically speaking, footwork and agility arent the same thing. Agility is a physical skill set and footwork is a technical skill. Someone could not be able to change directions well but could have trained to bend properly and move skillfully. It is slightly different with agility and elusiveness. Agility is a physical skill set and elusiveness is the manner in which someone can break a tackle without using a move(in practice elusiveness is more used for the truck stick with players who cant truck) Players who have great juke/spin moves but arent elusive tend to get tackled much faster then someone who is elusive but has average moves(RL speaking not madden because of how madden uses elusiveness)

Last edited by Glorious Arc; 11-30-2009 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:07 PM   #38
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

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Originally Posted by KBLover
So how does a computer animate the players and determine the result of plays without using any numbers at all? How does it know how fast to animate one player over another if neither has any speed boosting abilities? How would it know to make a WR run faster than a DT if there were no ratings for speed?

One may have more abilities than others, but how does the computer know how much to make one player better than the other that doesn't have such-and-such ability? Are all players with the same ability equally effective? If not, how does the computer differentiate between the players without ratings?

How would the computer determine which player has the advantage and by how much if there were no numbers at all behind the words?
Another great example of this is the players in 2k8 who have no abilities but are still at least bronze star players. What seperates them from other players if they have no abilities, or what seperates a bronze star player with 5 abilities from a gold star player with 2 or 3. It is the underlying numbers running the system. Basically what you have is a system similar to madden's weapon system but without showing the numbers that create those weapons.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:08 PM   #39
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

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Originally Posted by KBLover
Actually, it could have worked for separating players if this was the only method of progression. For example, 10 players could have 90 speed, but 2 of them have a speed weapon. Those two could get to 99, but the others are "stuck" at 90 (before they declined). When declining starts, the "weapon players" could keep training.

Of course, I don't think they went that far with it, but it was a start. But, as usual, instead of developing a feature and growing it, they cut it.
It could have been used as such and made to have some value but as is if a player had I think like 95 speed it showed a weapon (80 for a qb I think), if they didn't it didn't
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:18 PM   #40
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
So how does a computer animate the players and determine the result of plays without using any numbers at all? How does it know how fast to animate one player over another if neither has any speed boosting abilities? How would it know to make a WR run faster than a DT if there were no ratings for speed?

One may have more abilities than others, but how does the computer know how much to make one player better than the other that doesn't have such-and-such ability? Are all players with the same ability equally effective? If not, how does the computer differentiate between the players without ratings?

How would the computer determine which player has the advantage and by how much if there were no numbers at all behind the words?
I don't know, I didn't program the game and neither did you. The CPU differentiatedplayers by their abilities and how many of them they had. When playing with a burner I couldn't really tell if he was faster than another players that was a burner. All I could feel is that both players were fast.

It doesn't matter anyway, 2k8's system was more practical. There weren't nearly as many ratings( numerical or not), which might explain why they stood out so much more.

I know one thing, dlineman didn't have a carry or an elusiveness rating.
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