A Rant about Madden.......minus the bashing

[hatisback]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

Good point. The direction of the game is supposedly heading in the 'sim' direction, and as such it should start to incorporate some of the things you've suggested. With that said, and I can't speak for anyone else here, but I've personally take ian cummings words cum grano salis.. I'm not a business man but: average gamer > sim madden gamer. Hence AFL uniforms and themes before fixing franchise sim stats, etc. Hopefully improved CPU AI is in the cards for future versions..

Me too. Im just breaking it down into basic math.

Three things essential to a football game I have already posted.

365 days/3 important aspects= 121.666

That is four months to take those things and implement them. Take all the uniforms and crap from the past years version and keep them in if you want to. I could care less about updates to those. I would play in the same stadium, with the same generic endzones and the same field for the sake of at least having simulation football.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

Would you rather play chess where your opponent was always one step ahead of you and you were constantly beaten, or a game of chess where you could outplay your opponent, enjoy your success for stretches, but to keep it close your opponent cheated every once in awhile? Think about that in relation to the general madden public as well.

I absolutely would rather play chess with an opponent that beat me using chess strategy and if I couldn't catch up or read the board/possible outcomes of my moves as well. Well - I deserve to lose. That's part of chess strategy.

I would certainly rather the AI "keep it close" by good playcalling and execution without cheating.

If EA is worried about the "average" Madden gamer, well that's what difficulty levels are for. I remember playing CoH and when I was modding the AI, I saw functions that were used only if the AI was on Hard or Expert difficulty. People aren't WW2 generals either, but that doesn't mean they want a WW2 game that just cheats and doesn't at least appear to use real life tactics and have weapons match up against units in a relatively realistic way. (No rifles blowing up tanks for the sake of "creating a challenging AI" or for the sake of "concern for the average gamer")

EA could do the same thing. Using Hardcore play call would have the AI use the whole playbook and all of its football strategy. Advanced would use some, but not all, and Beginner would just be base defense and vanilla offense.

Those of us who DO want to have a great "chess match" in the game shouldn't lose out any more than those who want to just to have "fun, high scoring games with their favorite team" shouldn't lose out either. Not in this era of gaming and with things that have options.

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

I think it would be fair to say people (though most wouldn't admit it) like to 'lose' due to something arbitrary and out of there control (12 foot jump by a 5'11 MLB for a behind the back INT) than to spend an hour getting stifled and out-thought by an omniscient SIM engine.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather be shut down, assuming the team had the personnel to shut my offense down, by an AI that can read my tendencies, understand the personnel I have, and the situation of the game, and truly adjust to them than to see a bunch of ridiculously unrealistic plays like what you described.

That's just frustrating and not even a semblance of realism.

[RaiderKtulu]

...and if the game were to have "perfect" playcalling AI, then you'd never run into situations like, oh, a certain New England team deciding to go for it on 4th & 2 deep in their own territory while clinging to a small lead late in the 4th.

Programming AI to behave like a human opponent is not an easy task.

The AI calling the right play every time is just as unrealistic as the "cheating" is now.

[jmurphy31]

This is one of the more interesting threads I read in awhile. Probably because there isn't a ton of just straight bashing the game, but looking at the game from a different view. I would like smarter AI that doesn't cheat. But remember its a video game and I think it is almost impossible to achieve that. Plus I think gamers will always find plays that work almost all the time. Great original post by the way

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by RaiderKtulu

...and if the game were to have "perfect" playcalling AI, then you'd never run into situations like, oh, a certain New England team deciding to go for it on 4th & 2 deep in their own territory while clinging to a small lead late in the 4th. Programming AI to behave like a human opponent is not an easy task. The AI calling the right play every time is just as unrealistic as the "cheating" is now.

Heh.

True, but does the AI do that now? I haven't seen the AI make that...interesting...sort of call yet.

No AI should be "perfect" but I think there's room between where the AI is now with its strategy and perfection...

Of course, calling the right play is half the battle. The other half involves the 22 men on the field. So even if the AI does call "perfect" plays, it wouldn't guarantee success.

I think the thing with Madden is it's too "extremes" oriented. Players (and plays) fail horribly or are spectacular successes. In real football, imo, there's more "small victories" that add up over time with the occasions of great plays and individual efforts.

[ThePebble19]

This has been a refreshing and calm thread so far, I like it.

I think one of the difficult things about football games in general is finding the balance between smart A.I. (taking good angles, running good routes, breaking tackles/blocks, etc.) and making each player's individual ratings effect how they play on the field.

While the A.I. should be a challenge and should play smart, Brian Moorman should not be able to take on a NT and hold a block as well as Nick Mangold. Just the same as Chris Kelsay should not be able to penetrate the line as well as Dwight Freeney.

Right now, the AI is overpowering the ratings, and it is creating a very streamlined football experience. Just about every player plays like everyone else.

[CMH]

Quote: Originally Posted by hatisback

I mean, wouldn't making the AI smarter when you up the level to like All-Madden be more realistic than just having them break blocks and superman intercept the passes?

I can't say for sure how EA designs the game on different difficulty levels, but it's a definite given that most sports games seem to not follow the above theory; instead, attributes are bumped up to make the CPU more difficult.

This is most telling in baseball and basketball games. That's when you start seeing the CPU AI hit 60% of their shots, contested, falling away. That's when you see guys blasting homerun after homerun even off the toughest of pitches with ease.

And yes, that's when sports gaming is most frustrating. It's what has mostly turned me away from sports video games.

I can't remember which basketball title it was, but I remember a developer once saying that at their highest difficulty levels the attributes aren't bumped, rather reaction time and intelligence was bumped. So, it wasn't that Kobe can suddenly hit 60% of his jumpers. It was that Kobe could better recognize open space and create a shot. Or it was that Kobe can better close the lane preventing you from driving to the hoop.

That's the way higher difficulty levels should be tuned. Again, I'm not sure what the case is with Madden, but I guess if enough people feel that that isn't the case then the development team would need to continue fine tuning it.

[Segagendude]

I'm amazed at the OP's ability to sit through the incoherant ramblings of the video makers..........


Back on topic: It'd be nice to have a football vid game that mimics everything seen on Sundays. I don't think I'll see that in my lifetime....