A Rant about Madden.......minus the bashing

[treq21]

Quote: Originally Posted by cover3blitz

This is why playing vs the CPU SUCKS and that you guys need to quit worrying about sim style, cause it doesn't exist. Get online, join a league...get some friends to play with and stop playing lame *** offline franchise vs no one

Playing an actual person is even less sim than playing the cpu. Because hardly anyone has the patience to run the ball a lot, or play realistic defense . When i play on line i find myself calling almost all nickel and dime defenses, because all anyone does is pass.

At least with the cpu I can get somwhat of a realistic game.

[Tito78]

Quote: Originally Posted by RaiderKtulu

...and if the game were to have "perfect" playcalling AI, then you'd never run into situations like, oh, a certain New England team deciding to go for it on 4th & 2 deep in their own territory while clinging to a small lead late in the 4th. Programming AI to behave like a human opponent is not an easy task. The AI calling the right play every time is just as unrealistic as the "cheating" is now.

If AI called the right play everytime, it wouldn't be Artificial intelligence(A.I); it would be Artificial Clairvoyance, or A.C.
Intelligence is the ability to pick up on something or to recognize a pattern of behavior, not to predict it.

I don't see why it would be that hard. Depending on the difficulity level, the AI could simply know what play you're running and call the right play if you've run that play several times.

If you run a dive play on first down 3 series in a row, on you're fourth the defense should call a run blitz in the A gaps. The AI sort of does this already at times, but they cheat the way they do it. Many times when you audible to a pass, the D will audible also. If you reset the play, the defense with audible again. The CPU knows what play you're running. All they would have to do is only have the CPU do this when you run the same play a lot. When you see the CPU anticipating your play, if you audible, the CPU wouldn't audible as if the defense still knows your play because you've changed it.

It's that simple; if you don't mix it up, the AI gets psychic; however, if you see that the AI knows your play and you change, the AI shouldn't still know your play because you've changed it. If you audible to the same play every time, when you audible, then the CPU would stay psychic.

The harder the difficulty level, the faster the CPU gets psychic. Not that difficult.

[filtertmp]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tito78

I'm sorry, anyone who would enjoy having "success for stretches" only to have the CPU cheat them to keep the game competitive, rather than adjust to what they're are doing and stop it, needs to have themselves checked.

I don't think this as contentious a notion as you seem to infer.

The madden dev's can't program the CPU to exploit problems within the framework of the game that HUM players recognize quickly and use consistently.

A human player can easily disrupt a CPU 'stretch of success' by utilizing something unrealistic within football but successful within the framework of the videogame (certains blitzes, tosses on the goaline, slants/drags and other plays that have a higher level of success than they would in a 'real' game regardless of ratings, personnel etc.). This isn't a condemnation per se- in a real NFL game, they 'exploit' anything and everything as well. Your opponent AI is static and unadjustable once the game is shipped however.

People would be out for blood if the CPU recognized 'success' (again, nano's, certain routes/plays) within the game and exploited it without any HUM recourse within the framework of the game.. even though thats what HUM players do to the CPU and each other.

The HUM can't 'outcall' an unrealistic play by the CPU, like a crazy interception, just as the CPU can't 'outcall' the use of 'money plays' or tendencies used to a varying degree by the HUM player.

The solution would be to balance out the game and iron out kinks in the game interaction, but for now the alternative is to arbitrarily boost ratings (or however the difficulty system works) to increase difficulty- its the only way to ensure the CPU can consistently be competitive with the makeup of the game.

If you had only the AI playcalling adjust to increase difficulty, the possibility exists that the highest difficulty setting won't be 'difficult enough' for players that utilize ******** nano's and whatever (hey, their game, whatever) that operate independent of proper playcalling.

Think about the constituent base for madden.. as much as I would like to say its sim players, you need it to function for everyone, including the guy who runs the wildcat every play, etc.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

This isn't a condemnation per se- in a real NFL game, they 'exploit' anything and everything as well. Your opponent AI is static and unadjustable once the game is shipped however.

It wouldn't be if it learned/observed tendencies.

Other games have AIs that can do this. Madden supposedly has an AI that does this (Adaptive AI) - so where is it? Why can't it see that I ran the same play and at least attempt to stop it? It might not can stop me if I cheese, that doesn't mean it shouldn't attempt to do so. If I call Wildcat every play, the AI should be run blitzing like mad. Humans figure out that edge blitzing is more effective against Wildcat. Why can't the AI recognize that middle blitzing hasn't worked, so try edge blitzing?

This isn't something that's out there in the land of sci-fi. Dragon Warrior 4, a game made 15 years ago, had learning AI. Many a RTS lately has learning AI and/or AI that adjusts to your units. Many a modder has created AI that learns/adapts to what it's seeing in the game.

If EA doesn't want to do it, then they should open up the AI code/whatever tendencies it does have for modding like we can "mod" the difficulty of the game with sliders.

Why can't Madden have an AI that does this? Why can't it recognize my WR "units" are 95 SPD and should respect that speed? Why can't the AI recognize their DBs are best at zone coverage and then play zones in just about every pass coverage? Why does it blitz, blitz, blitz, even if you 8-yd your way down the field?

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

People would be out for blood if the CPU recognized 'success' (again, nano's, certain routes/plays) within the game and exploited it without any HUM recourse within the framework of the game.. even though thats what HUM players do to the CPU and each other.

Why does there have to be nano blitzes and routes the AI can't deal with in the first place? Why are the flats so badly covered? Why did EA make the LB AI be so freaking slow in getting into man coverage?

The game shouldn't have any of this crap in it to begin with, and then we wouldn't have to worry about this.

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

The HUM can't 'outcall' an unrealistic play by the CPU, like a crazy interception, just as the CPU can't 'outcall' the use of 'money plays' or tendencies used to a varying degree by the HUM player.

Which is why such plays should be done away with. Why does the game "need" money plays or crazily stupid unrealistic plays like a DL making a leaping INT like he's Asmougha or Revis or Reed?

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

The solution would be to balance out the game and iron out kinks in the game interaction, but for now the alternative is to arbitrarily boost ratings (or however the difficulty system works) to increase difficulty- its the only way to ensure the CPU can consistently be competitive with the makeup of the game.

Why is that the "only" way to make the CPU be competitive? Seriously, why wouldn't the AI playing better football, both in executing (making good reads, HBs that see and actually attack holes, etc) and calling plays (recognizing tendencies, understanding what's worked and what hasn't in various situations, etc) not make the AI be competitive?

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

If you had only the AI playcalling adjust to increase difficulty, the possibility exists that the highest difficulty setting won't be 'difficult enough' for players that utilize ******** nano's and whatever (hey, their game, whatever) that operate independent of proper playcalling. Think about the constituent base for madden.. as much as I would like to say its sim players, you need it to function for everyone, including the guy who runs the wildcat every play, etc.

Why should the game cater to those who can play only be exploiting flaws that shouldn't exist in the first place? I could care less if people want to call Wildcat or those "magic plays" every time. I'm saying the AI shouldn't be unable to deal with any play in the game. It shouldn't be unable to see that I've called the same play for all 20 of my offensive plays to that point.

If the AI could deal with plays like Wildcat, calling it every play wouldn't be an attractive strategy. And if you do it anyway, and lose, well - that's football.

I don't think this is a "sim" vs "cheeser" issue. I could care less if someone wants to go for it on every 4th and 20 or never punt or call the same 3 plays all game. Like you said, how they play their game is their business.

The game just shouldn't have plays the AI can't deal with. If someone wants to turn all the sliders down so the AI is just a formality, well, that's their business. But those of us who want the AI to be a realistic challenge (very few crazy plays - instead better execution and strategy) shouldn't lose out either and "our" only recourse shouldn't be dealing with ridiculous nonsense "gameplay" because the AI was gimped to account for the supposed batch of gamers that wants the AI to suck.

The options are already there: Playcall type and sliders. It's just a matter of making Playcall type more than a formality (especially between Advanced and Hardcore - the only differences are debated small changes in the AI) and sliders can put in all the "attribute boosting" the user wants.

[Tito78]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

It wouldn't be if it learned/observed tendencies. Other games have AIs that can do this. Madden supposedly has an AI that does this (Adaptive AI) - so where is it? Why can't it see that I ran the same play and at least attempt to stop it? It might not can stop me if I cheese, that doesn't mean it shouldn't attempt to do so. If I call Wildcat every play, the AI should be run blitzing like mad. Humans figure out that edge blitzing is more effective against Wildcat. Why can't the AI recognize that middle blitzing hasn't worked, so try edge blitzing? This isn't something that's out there in the land of sci-fi. Dragon Warrior 4, a game made 15 years ago, had learning AI. Many a RTS lately has learning AI and/or AI that adjusts to your units. Many a modder has created AI that learns/adapts to what it's seeing in the game. If EA doesn't want to do it, then they should open up the AI code/whatever tendencies it does have for modding like we can "mod" the difficulty of the game with sliders. Why can't Madden have an AI that does this? Why can't it recognize my WR "units" are 95 SPD and should respect that speed? Why can't the AI recognize their DBs are best at zone coverage and then play zones in just about every pass coverage? Why does it blitz, blitz, blitz, even if you 8-yd your way down the field? Why does there have to be nano blitzes and routes the AI can't deal with in the first place? Why are the flats so badly covered? Why did EA make the LB AI be so freaking slow in getting into man coverage? The game shouldn't have any of this crap in it to begin with, and then we wouldn't have to worry about this. Which is why such plays should be done away with. Why does the game "need" money plays or crazily stupid unrealistic plays like a DL making a leaping INT like he's Asmougha or Revis or Reed? Why is that the "only" way to make the CPU be competitive? Seriously, why wouldn't the AI playing better football, both in executing (making good reads, HBs that see and actually attack holes, etc) and calling plays (recognizing tendencies, understanding what's worked and what hasn't in various situations, etc) not make the AI be competitive? Why should the game cater to those who can play only be exploiting flaws that shouldn't exist in the first place? I could care less if people want to call Wildcat or those "magic plays" every time. I'm saying the AI shouldn't be unable to deal with any play in the game. It shouldn't be unable to see that I've called the same play for all 20 of my offensive plays to that point. If the AI could deal with plays like Wildcat, calling it every play wouldn't be an attractive strategy. And if you do it anyway, and lose, well - that's football. I don't think this is a "sim" vs "cheeser" issue. I could care less if someone wants to go for it on every 4th and 20 or never punt or call the same 3 plays all game. Like you said, how they play their game is their business. The game just shouldn't have plays the AI can't deal with. If someone wants to turn all the sliders down so the AI is just a formality, well, that's their business. But those of us who want the AI to be a realistic challenge (very few crazy plays - instead better execution and strategy) shouldn't lose out either and "our" only recourse shouldn't be dealing with ridiculous nonsense "gameplay" because the AI was gimped to account for the supposed batch of gamers that wants the AI to suck. The options are already there: Playcall type and sliders. It's just a matter of making Playcall type more than a formality (especially between Advanced and Hardcore - the only differences are debated small changes in the AI) and sliders can put in all the "attribute boosting" the user wants.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[hatisback]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tito78

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Exactly what he said. The only "adaptive AI" that I have seen consists of the following:

CPU AI-"Okay, I see you have run it three straight times and have picked up two first downs so far. I know!! I'll make your O-line look like crap and all of my D-Line will just blow right past them."

[Boregard]

I have to say that the Adaptive AI we keep getting promised year after year is never there!

If my opponent calls the same damn play 5 times in one game and the defenders do not react to it better by the 3rd time there is no adaptive AI, and that includes HUM VS HUM games. There should be no money routes - cuz if you are getting burnt by the same route over and over in the game the AI controlled players for either a CPU or HUM controlled team should "adjust" to make that route less effective.

Take the slant route for example. I blitz a bunch and my opponent keeps killing me with the slant - I had the option to "shade" on last gen - but with that gone I have to now abandon certain blitzes cuz the slant is a money route because there is no way to "tell" the CB to take away the inside which is what he should be keying on (short routes) due to the blitz anyway!!!

Fixing the AI, does not make the game too hard for casual gamers because as many have said before that is what the lower difficulty settings are for!

Making the game more difficult by having the game play smarter rather than cheat should be freakin obvious by now!!!

And for that matter, since when should an 85 SPD guy run stride for stride with a 97 SPD guy on any setting???

Look I understand that the speed thing is a sore spot for some because it seems to out weigh most other ratings by far, but you should be able to use speed in situations where it makes sense. If the team you are playing has a great speed WR, then you have to bumb him, double him, roll the coverage towards him and all that - that is part of the chess game we are missing.

Same goes for elite pass rushers or run stuffers - they don't show up in M10 the way they should! You should have to chip them, hot route the TE or RB to block to their side - I mean where is any chess game stuff in M10? The big time players are hardly distinguishable from the above average players and that sucks!!!

[sportyguyfl31]

I get frustrated at times, because I feel like the game is limited and only allows me to play in 1 sized box.

I have a team full of power move linemen and OLB out of a base 3-4 (Jets), and using them manually is pretty much futile.

Trying to use any DL of signifcance, manually vs a user is a frustrating experience at so many levels, mainly due to the nonsense going on behind you.

Can I play with a Safety or MLB? sure I can, but ideally I dont WANT to. It's a very vanilla, one play style fits all game.