A Rant about Madden.......minus the bashing

[hatisback]

Hi all.

I know that this is going to bring some negativity on this topic, but I was watching some videos on youtube from apexisfree and versuz I believe, about the gameplay in Madden 2010. Versuz showed that on a HB power to the right with the Cincinnatti Bengals, the San Diego Chargers defensive line beat every one of his offensive line with a swim move I believe its called (do not know much about moves when it comes to the line).

He also showed the fullback missing the block on the right outside linebacker blitz, instead, focusing on his attention on blocking the middle linebacker that was staying still "baiting" him through the O-line. After watching that, I started to think about an article I read in gameinformer in the letters to the editor. A subscriber asked the editor why devs do not make the game logic when it comes to the AI smarter. The editor replied with along the lines of, "they choose to make the AI just cheat you out of winning by making something happen that shouldn't because it's supposedly alot more work on their part". And I am not bashing EA for it, because it happens in alot of games.

It's the same way for first person or third person shooters, or a majority of them anyway. Instead of having the AI react smarter and find or calculate the best way possible to beat you, they make it so instead of one bullet to the head, it's three now. And their shots wind up damaging you more than they normally would.

I mean, wouldn't making the AI smarter when you up the level to like All-Madden be more realistic than just having them break blocks and superman intercept the passes?

Here are the three main things in my oppinion they can do to make Madden good again.

1) Make ratings (all of them) actually mean something.

2) Make sure that everything you put in your game happens in football. If it does happen in football, make sure it happens that way in football.

3) When you up the difficulty, make the AI logic smarter, not harder by cheating us out of plays.

Anyone else agree with my theory?

[Vikes1]

I agree with your theory Hat....but #2, we may be waiting awhile on that one.

Imo, their a ways away from getting the sports games of today from really mirroring real life. It's just my opinion, but if real life is the near absolute standard some possibly hold todays sports games to...your bound to be disappointed.

[hatisback]

Well, I edited number two and rephrased it to more specific of what I wanted to put.

[filtertmp]

I agree with your general points, but I think you did yourself a disservice with the anecdote of someone else's youtube videos..

Everyone has experienced what they perceive as something 'cheap' or a 'shortcut in the ai', and can understand your frustration. With that said, there isn't really a plausible alternative.

You mentioned you were upset that every single o-lineman on one particular play (sample size..) got beat by the same move. This obviously looks strange and unrealistic. Would you be less upset if the CPU called the appropriate defense more frequently (blitzing the a-gap, or whatever) to stop the play for the same result.

Everyone thinks it would be better if the CPU just outcalled you, but it would likely be even more frustrating.

Everyone seems to think (and I don't mean to infer you do as well) that 'oh, I have outcalled the CPU AI with a better gameplan and playcalling, and the CPU is cheating to compensate for my genius.' Sorry, but people are not football savants. The CPU could 'outcall' you within the framework of the game if the developers chose.

Would you rather play chess where your opponent was always one step ahead of you and you were constantly beaten, or a game of chess where you could outplay your opponent, enjoy your success for stretches, but to keep it close your opponent cheated every once in awhile? Think about that in relation to the general madden public as well.

[hatisback]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

I agree with your general points, but I think you did yourself a disservice with the anecdote of someone else's youtube videos.. Everyone has experienced what they perceive as something 'cheap' or a 'shortcut in the ai', and can understand your frustration. With that said, there isn't really a plausible alternative. You mentioned you were upset that every single o-lineman on one particular play (sample size..) got beat by the same move. This obviously looks strange and unrealistic. Would you be less upset if the CPU called the appropriate defense more frequently (blitzing the a-gap, or whatever) to stop the play for the same result. Everyone thinks it would be better if the CPU just outcalled you, but it would likely be even more frustrating. Everyone seems to think (and I don't mean to infer you do as well) that 'oh, I have outcalled the CPU AI with a better gameplan and playcalling, and the CPU is cheating to compensate for my genius.' Sorry, but people are not football savants. The CPU could 'outcall' you within the framework of the game if the developers chose. Would you rather play chess where your opponent was always one step ahead of you and you were constantly beaten, or a game of chess where you could outplay your opponent, enjoy your success for stretches, but to keep it close your opponent cheated every once in awhile? Think about that in relation to the general madden public as well.

Actually, I would be less frustrated if the AI did a middle blitz to stop the run because that is what happens in football. See my second rule. And if I was getting outplayed by the CPU difficulty, see rule #3.

[filtertmp]

Quote: Originally Posted by hatisback

Actually, I would be less frustrated if the AI did a middle blitz to stop the run because that is what happens in football. See my second rule. And if I was getting outplayed by the CPU difficulty, see rule #3.

I think it would easy to say it would be a better difficulty system if as difficulty increased, playcalling was more accurately countered by the CPU rather than something arbitrary. Not a particularly contentious notion there..

I only meant to suggest that it wasn't as simple as you suggest. Think about the average madden gamer. They aren't mike martz.. they aren't taking notes on the effects of specific formations and plays against specific defenses and personnel groups. You need a difficulty system that works with both the hardcore football fanatic and the 8 year old who likes to rush for 90tds a season with AP.

I think it would be fair to say people (though most wouldn't admit it) like to 'lose' due to something arbitrary and out of there control (12 foot jump by a 5'11 MLB for a behind the back INT) than to spend an hour getting stifled and out-thought by an omniscient SIM engine.

Just my .02.

[hatisback]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

I think it would easy to say it would be a better difficulty system if as difficulty increased, playcalling was more accurately countered by the CPU rather than something arbitrary. Not a particularly contentious notion there.. I only meant to suggest that it wasn't as simple as you suggest. Think about the average madden gamer. They aren't mike martz.. they aren't taking notes on the effects of specific formations and plays against specific defenses and personnel groups. You need a difficulty system that works with both the hardcore football fanatic and the 8 year old who likes to rush for 90tds a season with AP. I think it would be fair to say people (though most wouldn't admit it) like to 'lose' due to something arbitrary and out of there control (12 foot jump by a 5'11 MLB for a behind the back INT) than to spend an hour getting stifled and out-thought by an omniscient SIM engine. Just my .02.

I can see your point, except for Mr. Ian Cummings saying that they are trying to make the game more for sim play. What's sim about cheese and blatant cheating by the AI?

[filtertmp]

Good point. The direction of the game is supposedly heading in the 'sim' direction, and as such it should start to incorporate some of the things you've suggested.

With that said, and I can't speak for anyone else here, but I've personally take ian cummings words cum grano salis..

I'm not a business man but: average gamer > sim madden gamer.

Hence AFL uniforms and themes before fixing franchise sim stats, etc.

Hopefully improved CPU AI is in the cards for future versions..