Death to BOB, or, how blocking should work

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

Please watch this video at the 3:07 mark http://www.youtube.com/user/versuz2#p/u/22/6pPXNt0vGjw Forgive me if I'm wrong but if madden's pass blocking is basically correct, they should block BOB and protect from the inside out (since inside is the quickest way to the qb). Basically in this example the guard slides to the outside on the de and lets a blitzing lb lined up almost at the LOS right through the A gap. The blocking issue is bigger than just RB's failing to pick up blitzing lbs properly.

It is "basically correct", and in fact was more or less spot on for BOB protection as of Community Day, but fears of nano-blitzing caused them to give the offensive line cheats that threw the whole system off.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

BOB= Big on Big (IE: Lineman on Lineman).They wouldn't pick up a blitzing linebacker, they would leave that to the running backs. The running back should really be on check and release routes. Check the blitzers, if noone comes, you release. If somebody blitzes you pick them up.

As it is, the check and release routes simply block for a second then release anyways. Infuriating at times.

Quote:

Meh, nobody in the NFL really runs a trap. Would it be kinda cool? Sure, but not terribly realistic. Plus to put in a trap, you would have to put in a lot of more work on the defensive line. If you have the OL trap, the DL needs to wrong-arm a trap, or it should hit 100% of the time. Theres a new animation and new AI to program for a play that might be run 15 times a year....in the entire league.

I think BezO has a point here... it could come back next season in a big way, so it's hard to remove what's already there... though clearly you'd want to program the AI to avoid it. The nice thing is that zone/stretch blocking can be done fairly well under the current system, while it'd have to be retooled in a pretty big way to handle power blocking well.

Quote: Originally Posted by Palo20

How feasible would it be to get strong and weak side LBs, DEs, and Safeties into the game? Or Flanker/Split End, and other positions that are dictated by formation rather than left or right. I think the only team that pretty much has a true Left WR and Right WR is the Colts.

I think this should be decided on a team-by-team basis. Contrary to popular belief, most teams don't flip their safeties/ends/outside backers. If they did, they'd be dealing with quick snaps all day and be out of position all the time. A strongside linebacker in most cases is simply the LOLB, and he's called that because NFL teams run strong right 80% of the time (putting the combo routes to the side easiest for the QB to see, and running strength to the side build more for run blocking than pass blocking).

[PlatooN]

To the OP: A+ Thread. Great read - very knowledgeable. thanks for taking the time to write this

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Great thread. I have one argument to make. There are a few teams... the 49ers, for example, that still do run some old power-running schemes. The 49ers run a 22 counter draw in which the backside guard leads into the hole. It's not a trap except in the sense that the guard leads into the hole, but he's usually going for a 2nd level block, not kicking out a tackle.

When I see "trap" I think of the FB at 4-yard depth, running "the bend" (2 steps in the opposite direction, get the ball, bend into the hole). PSG g-d-b to the weak LB. PST g-d-b to the MLB, TE g-d-b to playside TE.

BSG pulls and kicks the tackle. Here are issues with adding it to a game.

1) Which player do you kick? Are you going to "trap" a nose tackle? How is the back going to change his aiming point to compensate.

2) How do you change who you trap if they move the DL?

3) How do you teach the MLB and DT to defend it, without chaning how they defend a zone or power play? What about a nickle package...or even a 3-4 when there is no true MLB...who is playing the trap?

Not to mention, by nature, the trap is a very quick hitting play (Our back has to hit the hole under 0.9 seconds). Remember the FB dive abuse? This should do the same thing....with better blocking.

To me, that just seems like a lot of things to work out for something that isn't really prevelant in the NFL (yet). I wouldn't want Ian and co. developing solutions to run the trap instead of testing the zone play and checking on the defense to it.

Just my opinion (and believe me, the trap would be a HUGE part of my offense if it worked).

[DerkontheOS]

Wow, bravo this is a fantastic thread.... I didn't know how little I knew about blocking assignments till I read this.... If Madden had all of this stuff in it I would never put it down!

[Hova57]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

When I see "trap" I think of the FB at 4-yard depth, running "the bend" (2 steps in the opposite direction, get the ball, bend into the hole). PSG g-d-b to the weak LB. PST g-d-b to the MLB, TE g-d-b to playside TE. BSG pulls and kicks the tackle. Here are issues with adding it to a game. 1) Which player do you kick? Are you going to "trap" a nose tackle? How is the back going to change his aiming point to compensate. 2) How do you change who you trap if they move the DL? 3) How do you teach the MLB and DT to defend it, without chaning how they defend a zone or power play? What about a nickle package...or even a 3-4 when there is no true MLB...who is playing the trap? Not to mention, by nature, the trap is a very quick hitting play (Our back has to hit the hole under 0.9 seconds). Remember the FB dive abuse? This should do the same thing....with better blocking. To me, that just seems like a lot of things to work out for something that isn't really prevelant in the NFL (yet). I wouldn't want Ian and co. developing solutions to run the trap instead of testing the zone play and checking on the defense to it. Just my opinion (and believe me, the trap would be a HUGE part of my offense if it worked).

to your first two question who to trap, this is where gap assignment for defense would come into play. technically most most dt or nose are two gap so the tackle would double against playside guard and center , tackle would turn end and pulling guard would take inside lb and te would take outside lb. i believe i got that right, i just wrote it out on paper i think that's right. its still difficult to pull off in a game because of gap assignments on defense and they would have to be changed up according to defensive alignment 4-4 gaps assignments are different than 4-3 . 3-4 makes it difficult because of guards having to reach off a double team

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Forgot to add. I completely disagree with your assessment that the game is far from perfect because of what's missing. The game doesn't work because the basics (Blocking concepts, coverage responsibility and run fits) don't exist.

Sounds like we agree. Things are missing/don't exist. But I'd add: engaged block mobility, tiered defensive play calling, realistic footwork & physics and better general AI to the list of basics.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

If they produced a game with half of the plays and formations (both offensive and defensive), that functioned properly with balance it would blow the current game out of the water.

Maybe for a few folks, but most want to play something that resembles what they see on Sundays. Imagine your from Philly and half the screen plays were missing. Or you're from New England and half the shotgun plays are missing. I doubt those folks would think that's better than what we have.

And defensively, no way this game could get away with less. The pre-packaged style of play calling is already too limiting. Most people I play make a few audibles EVERY play because what they want to do is not in the playbook. The defensive playbooks either need to be quadrupled in size or simply tiered.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

If you want more complexity, find a local high school and volunteer to coach. You can't turn a video game into real football. You can try and duplicate the basics.

I don't want more complexity. I want more accuracy. Duplicating the basics is exactly what I'm looking for. We just disagree on what the basics are. Defensive reads & reactions are basics in my book. You can't have toss plays & no contain AI. You can't have pulling guards and LBs not reacting to it properly. Like you said, the game nees balance. IMO, what's missing creates that imbalance.

[Palo20]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I think this should be decided on a team-by-team basis. Contrary to popular belief, most teams don't flip their safeties/ends/outside backers. If they did, they'd be dealing with quick snaps all day and be out of position all the time. A strongside linebacker in most cases is simply the LOLB, and he's called that because NFL teams run strong right 80% of the time (putting the combo routes to the side easiest for the QB to see, and running strength to the side build more for run blocking than pass blocking).

I'd say most 4-3 teams put their SAM on the strong side. It's not that hard to avoid quick snaps: both teams are in the huddle and you see where the strength of the formation is, then the LBs move accordingly.

3-4 teams have more Left and Right LBs, but are known for flipping the MLBs based on strength of formation.

I do agree though, this should be completely based on a team by team basis, and it would be another good way to get teams to play as they do in real life.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

When I see "trap" I think of the FB at 4-yard depth, running "the bend" (2 steps in the opposite direction, get the ball, bend into the hole). PSG g-d-b to the weak LB. PST g-d-b to the MLB, TE g-d-b to playside TE BSG pulls and kicks the tackle. Here are issues with adding it to a game..

I'm thinking about all the traps... FB trap, single back trap, counter trap, ect.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

1) Which player do you kick? Are you going to "trap" a nose tackle? How is the back going to change his aiming point to compensate.

Trap the 2+ technique. Strongside, probably a DT, weakside, maybe a DE against a 4-3.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

2) How do you change who you trap if they move the DL?

You don't. Trap the 2+ technique. Whoever ends up there.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

3) How do you teach the MLB and DT to defend it, without chaning how they defend a zone or power play? What about a nickle package...or even a 3-4 when there is no true MLB...who is playing the trap?

Not sure what they have now, but not much should change with the MLB. Reading the guard & back should take him to the play. A 2-gapping DT should read & react. A 1-gap DT should play his gap.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Not to mention, by nature, the trap is a very quick hitting play (Our back has to hit the hole under 0.9 seconds). Remember the FB dive abuse? This should do the same thing....with better blocking.

If they add the necessary AI & animations, there'd be no abuse.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

To me, that just seems like a lot of things to work out for something that isn't really prevelant in the NFL (yet). I wouldn't want Ian and co. developing solutions to run the trap instead of testing the zone play and checking on the defense to it.

I don't think it's that much to change in terms of AI. My problem is more with the blocking interaction. Making the blocking less sticky & giving engaged players some mobility would solve most of the problem IMO.