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Old 02-04-2010, 12:53 PM   #9
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

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Originally Posted by Exonerated
FYI the Colts never run a 4 wide set. Its either 2 TE 2 WR 1 RB or 1 TE 3 WR.

This is basically their entire personel package except for short yardage runs.

Whether they spread them out or compress them, its always the same personel packages.

Just thought I had to share. I don't know why.
Yep. I was realizing more and more how my playbooks allows me to use the same personnel in different spots to do things.. I just wasn't sure what those things were. I was hoping some coach would come in here and clean this whole thing up for me.. Lbz where you at?! lol
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:19 PM   #10
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

The bunch set is better for the run both inside and outside. Alot of times the blocker closest to the formation can cut off backside or you can motion him to get involved into the running scheme.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:41 PM   #11
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

I don't know if I can help but I'm a high school coach and run the spread. Where I'm from most the schools run triple option because it is easy to find kids that can run it but to teach a kid to throw the ball is real coaching. I don't have a football background, played basketball in high school and college, but I have studied football for years to get where I'm at. Here we go, this is how I see it.

The spread is desinged to spread the D out. What some peolpe don't know is the O-line also lines up a little wider for the spread passing teams. Why, well to give the QB an ally to throw through. See Drew Brees back in Purdue. Helps the smaller QB's.
With 4 & 5 wide the D does have to decide weather to play zone, which creates holes between the deep safeties and corners, or they blitz with man coverage which can be picked apart by the short passes. Also when playing a team that runs a 3-4 now has to put 4 down linemen on the filed to blitz 4 or stay ture to the 3-4 dime coverage an send a Linebacker which can create a hole if you read it right.
Like someone said the spread is not always down the field and does not have to be 4-5 WR but can use TE's, & back's to spread teams out. Yes the Colts do run a form of spread with Clark lined-up off the line like a WR. This works if you have a freak like Clark that is no more then a huge WR.
The routs that work well in the spread or the crossing routs, short slant/shallow post, and screan's. All these routs expose the holes left by zone coverage and if in man coverage then it gets guys open. The crossing routs can create a pick if the D is in man. The key is open easy throws and the WR's finding the holes in the zone coverage.
The differance in formations is to change things up. For me I find it better to run out of 4 wide becuase the D is so "spread" out that and safeties are back, that the back's will have a hole and one-on-one with a linebacker. The run plays can also be the screens and passes to the backs in the flats. You don't aways have to the hand the ball off for it to be a "run play".
The bunch is great to draw the D close and run those pick plays. These are like a pick in Basketball in that 2 guys will get locked up with one guy and one guy is now free/open. The key is to get your guy (you are the WR) to get triped or caught up with his own man. A good run play out of the bunch is a toss since that D is in tight. You can seal off and get the back out past the tackle and in space.
As far as needing a moble QB is not as big unless you run a spread option. See UF or WVU for this. Tebow and Pat White was great at this style. For me I need a kid that can throw the ball on the mark. I don't need a big arm since I don't have a single throw over 20 yards. A QB that knows when to step up in the pocket.
Its easier to find 4 good WR's then to find 4 good CB's. This is where the spread has the advantage in college and kills in high school if ran right. You take the strength of the D away (strong linemen and linebackers) and the blitz.
For me this is the best system. There is so much you can do with it. You can throw the ball every where or you can run the option. I like to move guys around like a WR to a back or 2 o-linmen out wide with a WR behind them. Thank you Ol' Ball Coach for that one. If you can make the D do things they are not use to doing then you win. My #1 formation is 4 wide QB in the "Pistol". I try and keep my QB in the "Pistol" because you can do so much.
The spread in video games is worthless becuase the guys making the games don't know what they are doing. They don't understand football. And in real life ever coach puts there own spin on the spread. So things differ from team to team.
Thats just a little insight from a coach. Alot of you guys make good points and like I said the spread is different for every team. But the one thing that is the same is it spreads the D out and can create holes or miss-matches. After that it depends on how the team runs it.


P.S. I'm not typing all this while teaching kid. I'm at home sick so no wasting of State money here.
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:31 PM   #12
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

Great post, Jbrew! I do appreciate that. A lot of what you wrote is consistent to what I've read in other playbooks (real life playbooks) and articles from real coaches like yourself.

I remember reading about how one groundbreaking thing that Texas Tech did under Leach was really spread the splits of his OL out.. which did the opposite of what you'd think. You'd think that it makes bigger holes for rushers to get through, but in reality it forces the defense to spread out even more in order to contain the offense, and that also opens the aforementioned passing lanes.

Is there any very specific aspect of the spread that is mis-represented in Madden that leads you to believe it's not accurate at all? I find uses for the spread, but can also see things that are maybe a bit too effective against the spread at times (man bump... maybe my WR's just aren't that great at releasing).

Anyway, I read what you wrote very closely and it is much appreciated. That's the kind of stuff I was looking for.
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Old 02-05-2010, 09:07 AM   #13
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

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Originally Posted by CreatineKasey
Great post, Jbrew! I do appreciate that. A lot of what you wrote is consistent to what I've read in other playbooks (real life playbooks) and articles from real coaches like yourself.

I remember reading about how one groundbreaking thing that Texas Tech did under Leach was really spread the splits of his OL out.. which did the opposite of what you'd think. You'd think that it makes bigger holes for rushers to get through, but in reality it forces the defense to spread out even more in order to contain the offense, and that also opens the aforementioned passing lanes.

Is there any very specific aspect of the spread that is mis-represented in Madden that leads you to believe it's not accurate at all? I find uses for the spread, but can also see things that are maybe a bit too effective against the spread at times (man bump... maybe my WR's just aren't that great at releasing).

Anyway, I read what you wrote very closely and it is much appreciated. That's the kind of stuff I was looking for.
Your welcome. Well its a video game so they did some research but in the end these are not football guys so they do things wrong. Like I said before not every team that runs a spread system is not the same. To me they seem to be the same. Also you don't see the creative play that the spread can bring. The routs are base. You don't see those "rub routs" and the play I hate the most is when all 4 WR's run slant routs. Doing so would not spread the D out but draw them towards the middle of the field. I have slant routs like crazy in my playbook but its 1 guy running a slant not all 4. Its been a while since I played Madden and its very rare that I run spread in the game. I can't tell you everything that is wrong. Like I said its a video game so it will not look the same as what you see on Saturday's in college or on Sunday's in the NFL with a few teams.
You are right about the spreading out the line. If the D stays close then the QB will go to a screan or short slant. A quick pass to keep those D-linemen off of your QB. If they spread wide wich you want then you have those lanes that make passes easy and lanes to run as well.
Once again hope I was of some help. The video game spread vs real life spread are two different things.
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:10 PM   #14
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

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Originally Posted by CreatineKasey
So instead you complain in the thread? You could've taken that time to talk football. This isn't even Madden talk.. it's football strategy.

Oh well.. I would've liked to read your opinion.
Well the thing is, while I love to talk football with friends and I liek the point of this thread, it is in the Madden forum, and Madden doesn't do football justice.

I would like to talk about how to play against the spread and compresion formations defensively as I am more a defensively minded player myself. However, one thing to keep in mind is that despite all the talk, you cannot go in and recreate a lot of it in Madden and enjoy the game.

Scheme wise, I like to attack 3WR set offenses with a base 3-4 and the use of a lot of zone blitzes and man/zone combos. I prefer to use confusion/deception in order to apply pressure on the QB and force mistakes.

It is really nice against a compression formation, in my opinion, to come out in a base 3-4 look with, say, a cover 3 zone blitz package that may have one CB blitzing and leaving the other CB and two safties in a deep three, and have my SS come up into the box [in madden the "show blitz" feature] to pack in on the receivers and [in madden the "show man" feature] to make the offense think I am initially in man coverage only to have my defenders drop back into zone. This is just an example.

Defensively you have to mix it up all the time. Forexample, on another play I will come out in man in the 3-4 and still [in madden use the "show blitz"] by forcing my SS into the box and only rush three and play double on one of your recivers. There are some general rules to defense that should always hold true.
  • Don't play defense defensively. Attack.
  • Respect, but do not fear the other team's offense. Be prepared to keep at least one defender deep on almost every play when facing players like Randy Moss, Jerry Rice, Issac Bruce, or Reggie Bush, Reggie Wayne, etc.
  • Disguise you coverages and blitzes as often as possible. One sucessful way to do this is on a 1st or 2ed down send a blitz and do not disguise it at all, then on a crucial 3rd down later in the game, show them that same look, even though you are comming somewhere else.
  • Keep everything in front of you. Against the ever growing pass happy offenses in the NFL, often times the most sucessful defenses Keep plays in front of them and froce short passes and attempt to wrap up the ball carrier right away in stead of giving up big plays. It is hard to sustain a drive in the NFL, so forcing offenses to go the length of the field with a lot of plays is often better than it sounds.
Two of the things that teams have done to contain Peyton Manning are these:

1.) Manning tends to snap the ball inside 10 seconds. Call two defensive plays in the huddle. Your real play and your fake play. Come out and set up in your fake play, let manning make adjustments, and the audible into your real play when there is 10 seconds left on the play clock. The chargers did this just last year in the Play offs against Manning and in the 2ed half he started snaping the ball with 12 or 15 left, so the chargers adjusted as well. It's a chess match that you can't relax on.

2.) Every defensive play has a weakness. Know what they are. Also know that Manning will find the weakness in your scheme more often than not. Try and call your plays to "force" Manning to go to the weak point inthe Scheme and "force" where those weak points are to take advantage of tempo. This is tough to do, but the Patriots in the past forced short throws in the middle where their talented linebackers could clean up and/or lay a big hit instead of letting things go to the outside and the sidelines where their slower oldert line backers wouldn't have to chase all over the field.

-----

Was this ahat you were lookign for?
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:04 PM   #15
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

As far as defending a "spread" attack, the key is disrupting rhythmn.

You arent going to cover it. The rules make it impossible and there are tons of ways to rub recievers off each other, slant them, cross them, flood, bubble, whatever.

Like someone said earlier...the spread isnt necessarily a bombs away offense..it can be used in a ball control manner.

You arent going to cover all of the options, so the key is disrupt the rhythm and timing between the QB, WRs and to cause confusion along the offensive line.

This can be done through disguise: Coming out in one look, and changing (or bluffing) one or two times pre snap: Jumping from man to zone, or checking off from a zone, into a straight man, or combo coverage....and showing overload blitz looks: Showing blitz with your LBs, but bringing the blitz with DB's and vice versa.

In general, I think its best to blitz your fastes people against these type of offenses when you do: Nickle/Dime Backs, rolling up a safety, etc.

They are faster and usually blitz from angles that are harder for OT's to step out to pick them up. If you have an overload blitz coming, you put stress on the protection, to pick up the right people.


Guys like Darelle Revis, Champ Bailey, and Charles Woodson, are worth their weight in gold, because of how the game is officaited now; but there are only maybe a half dozen players like this, and you only have one of him on your team.

The passing game now, is all about rhythm and timing. Defense has to be geared towards breaking the QBs comfort level, and putting stress on the protection.

Last edited by sportyguyfl31; 02-05-2010 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:32 PM   #16
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Re: Trying to figure out the purpose of formations

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Originally Posted by PGaither84
Was this ahat you were lookign for?
Well, I was looking for offensive stuff moreso, but really I enjoy all football strategy discussions so I definitely enjoyed the read. I've read and applied a lot of what you wrote already. In Madden terms, oen way to apply the play switch is let people do all their hot routes, then switch your D.

I'm pretty well versed on the defensive strategy side of these formations, shown by my bullet points talking about weaknesses.

I just wasn't sure why certain teams put players in certain places beyond the very basics, which I tried to list. I wasn't sure if there was some method to the madness that I was never aware of. Judging by the responses, I pretty much was on the ball with those ideas.

I think if anything mixing up formations is just a way to create favorable matchups for your offense. Also, I think a lot of people adjust a certain way to a formation regardless of the previous plays called, and it's good to pick up on that. For example, many people seem to call man blitz against bigger personnel formations in order to stuff the run. With that knowledge you can adjust accordingly.

Think of formations putting blockers overloaded on one side to "out-flank" the defense. I guess it could apply to passing sets also.. especially when users "show blitz" at bad times. I've thrown numerous TD's on 5 yard outs to slot WR Mike Wallace because someone tried running a man blitz and hoped the safety could cover Wallace. Big mismatch.
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