The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

[CreatineKasey]

Quote: Originally Posted by seriousluboy83

False steps are a huge thing in madden...LB's first step should be towards the LOS and DB's first step should be away from the LOS

This is one of the many reasons why defense is so weird in M10 in some aspects. You can crowd the box yet run on it because linebackers are creeping backwards against an ISO because they are in a soft zone D. This is also why those linebackers can cover while being scrunched into a small place. It's extremely counter-intuitive. If that was a real life situation I think the linebackers would still read run first and probably get back to coverage slower.

The downside of show blitz is mis-represented in Madden at this moment in my opinion. The upside is in some ways also.

[ANDROMADA 1]

Quote: Originally Posted by seriousluboy83

False steps are a huge thing in madden...LB's first step should be towards the LOS and DB's first step should be away from the LOS

Yup. Even if the OLB is covering the TE, He Should NEVER, back up immediately, NEVER. You always attack as a defender. You put your hands on the Te to Jam him at the line then you make your read.

[sportyguyfl31]

Quote: Originally Posted by ANDROMADA 1

Good Stuff Sven!! I would add that the reason to Toss plays and most other outside run plays can seem over effective is the lack of POA...Point of Attack(Especially the DE and OLB. They should be the first ones getting to the ball carrier or at least occupying the oncoming guard or tackle so that the MLB can make the stop. Instead they back up first instead of reading the Te and the Tackle. The OLB if properly schemed would Always put his hands on the TE and if the TE Blocks down, The OLB is supposed to step down and look for the guard/near back and come hard. This never happens, thus the routine 50, 70, 80 yard outside runs...At least that is the way I was taught how to play OLB(strong Side). I also played FB and TE. Thats why for Madden it is critical to manually do as much as you can yourself.

Truth! You also dont see the MLB truly take on a lead blocker, or wade through "trash". They kinda just "pop" and end up where they need to be, or the blockers do not pick him up.

I think if there was some way to program logic that would tell the LBs, "When the OL down blocks, I fill in "

Casey is also correct. When in zone coverage, the logic has them retreating from the LOS, then reacting to the run, which shouldnt happen.

Having an in the box SS doesnt do much unless you are doing it yourself.

[Palo20]

Great Points about false steps. Right now in Madden it seems you can take a MLB, take 2 or 3 false steps, and still recover to cover a deep pass using speed burst. There should be more of a penalty for being out of place.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

What does Jimmy Johnson have to do with this dumb thread anyway Funny you should ask. Before he was acting like a moron for more money than I'm likely to see in my life he was busy inventing the wishbone-killer, the 4-3 defense. While I wasn't in any of the meetings while it was being developed, so I'm not sure if he was doing his hair or diagraming, since he was the head coach he gets the credit (funny world eh?). His defense, named the Miami 4-3 (since he made it famous while coaching at Da U) was to force the ball wide and let the fast guys chase it down. While the Wishbone was eating the 3-4 alive (I mean, the Okie 5-2 for anyone who really cares )with the FB inside on the option runs, Johnson and Co. designed a defense to take away the inside run, force the QB to pitch it wide and then use the freakish speed he had to chase down the running back. Ok Sven, thanks for the history lesson, but how does it work. First, a diagram: ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB.............LB.................. LB...........CB ................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)..G.(b)..T..(c).TE (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... The premise is simple: There are 7 gaps(3 on the left, 4 on the right). There are 7 defensive players. As long as you have one player in each gap, they can't run anywhere. (Thus, gap control) The issue now becomes, how do you make sure that everybody is covering the right gap. You can't just blitz every gap every play (those Linebackers have to cover the pass as well). Block Down, Step Down This is the first important "feature" of the defense. What the wishbone (and, the "Power" running game of today) wants to do is run the ball somewhere between the "b" gap and the "c" gap. The wishbone did this by "reading" the end and linebacker. The power running game sends players to block the end and linebacker. Whichever the method, the offense wants to seal the DT and MLB inside, kickout the DE and send a lead blocker and the ball carrier in that hole. The gap-control defense, obviously, wants to prevent this. How? To block these plays the offense will utillize down blocks (IE, they are blocking down the line, to the inside). The guard will block to his inside. The tackle will block to his inside. The TE will block to his inside. The guard is going to try and block the LB (weakside, stacked over the DE). The tackle is going to block the DT. The TE is going to block the MLB. However, instead of allowing the offensive lineman to create a seam by down blocking, the defensive lineman will move with the offensive lineman. The guard will block down. Instead of standing in place (and create a seam between the guard and himself) the DT will step with the guard. The guard blocks down the line, the tackle steps down the line. The tackle is going to block down on that DT. Easy block. He's already blocking himself. The TE is going to block down, going for the TE. The DE isn't going to stand there and create a seam, he's going to step down with the TE. So lets look at our diagram again. The DT starts the play in the "B' gap. The DE starts it in the "d" gap. ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB.............LB.................. LB...........CB ................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)..G.(b)..T..(c).TE (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... The guard is blocking down. ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB...G..........LB..................LB...........CB ................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...(b)..T..(c).TE (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... The DT isn't just going to stand in the "b" gap, he'll step down (untill he runs into the center). ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB....G.........LB................. .LB...........CB ................DE...........N...DT...................DE WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...(b)..T..(c).TE (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... Now, he's in the "a" gap. ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB....G.........LB..TE............. ...LB...........CB ................DE...........N...DT...................DE WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... The tackle is blocking him (and moving inside). The TE is also blocking down. Look at that huge void between the Tackle and our DE. That would be a huge run, if the DE didn't step down with it. ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB....G.........LB...TE............ ...LB...........CB ................DE...........N...DT.....DE.............. WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... So, now instead of our DT and DE standing in the "b" and "d" gaps as they were in the start of the play, they are now occupying the "a" gap and the "b" gap. Why? Through, block down, step down. Ray-Ray Let's look at our first diagram one more time. ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB.............LB.................. LB...........CB ................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)..G.(b)..T..(c).TE (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... Look at the middle linebacker. He's standing over the "a" gap. But, now that gap is occupied with a DT. ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB....G.........LB...TE............ ...LB...........CB ................DE...........N...DT.....DE........ ...... WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... Think back to the basic premise of the defense. 7 gaps, and 7 defenders. Our MLB (say, Ray Lewis for Miami) isn't going to bash his head into an occupied gap. He's going to run sideways until he finds an unoccupied gap. (obviously, beating the TE's block along the way, but that is for another post). ......................F.................$......... ........ CB.............LB....G............TE.........LB......LB...........CB ................DE...........N...DT.....DE........ ...... WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d) ...........................Q.................. ...........................F................ ....................HB........HB......... Eureka! Since his original gap "a" was closed, and it's neighbor "b" was closed too, he went all the way to the "c" gap. So, when our running back tries to run into "c" gap that is closed too. So, he'll try and go wider, into the "d" gap. But, there's another LB standing there. Ok, get really wide. But now there is a CB standing there. Trapped like a rat. Through the process of "Block down/Step down" and Linebacker scrapping, the defense has occupied the 4 playside gaps without creating a single crack for the ball carrier. Either the ball carrier barrels into a defensive player, or he tries to go wide into the waiting arms of our corner (and safety).

Hate to be a stickler, but in the "Miami 4-3," the MLB lines up in a half stack on the nose guard to the weakside of the formation.

USC played more middle field safety defenses, with the weak safety in the box and the weak lb lined ub stacked on on the three technique, which is alot different then the under 2 deep defense you showed.

Gotta mention the 1-gap penetrating defenses too, which certainly isn't the same as the gap control defenses.

[Hova57]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Hate to be a stickler, but in the "Miami 4-3," the MLB lines up in a half stack on the nose guard to the weakside of the formation. USC played more middle field safety defenses, with the weak safety in the box and the weak lb lined ub stacked on on the three technique, which is alot different then the under 2 deep defense you showed. Gotta mention the 1-gap penetrating defenses too, which certainly isn't the same as the gap control defenses.

wouldn't that be more for a 46 defense or 3-3-5

[kcarr]

I think the biggest thing wrong with run defense in madden is first, the defense is only given pass protection assignments. If the play is a run all player's assignments become tackle the runner which causes a collapse in any containment that should be there. When this happens running becomes less about finding rushing lanes and more about breaking out of tackles. This also means that since there is no containment if the first line is broken the back is gone.

This ends up leading to most games rushing to be mostly losses and 1 or 2 yard gains with way more big plays than there should be. This may end up giving decent or even really high rushing numbers but this also ends up stopping the running game from doing what it is supposed to do for most teams which is to set up a consistent pushing force moving the chains and forcing the opposing team to react and bring extra people up near the line. The only way I have found to have a consistent rushing attack here is to have a big power back and just run north and south but that should not be the case. There should be the ability to with a solid o-line being able to run the ball with decent consistency without having to make big plays every game to put up realistic numbers.

Most backs in real life do not make a big run per game on average. In fact a complete list of running backs with 16 or more 20 yard carries in a season would be

Tiki barber, 1 time
Adrian peterson, 1 time
Chris Johnson, 1 time

That is 3 total seasons in 5 years, around once every 2 years one back out of all the backs in the league will pull this off. They really need to show this in the game and having players maintain their assignments against the run is probably the best way to do it.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by kcarr

I think the biggest thing wrong with run defense in madden is first, the defense is only given pass protection assignments. If the play is a run all player's assignments become tackle the runner which causes a collapse in any containment that should be there. When this happens running becomes less about finding rushing lanes and more about breaking out of tackles. This also means that since there is no containment if the first line is broken the back is gone. This ends up leading to most games rushing to be mostly losses and 1 or 2 yard gains with way more big plays than there should be. This may end up giving decent or even really high rushing numbers but this also ends up stopping the running game from doing what it is supposed to do for most teams which is to set up a consistent pushing force moving the chains and forcing the opposing team to react and bring extra people up near the line. The only way I have found to have a consistent rushing attack here is to have a big power back and just run north and south but that should not be the case. There should be the ability to with a solid o-line being able to run the ball with decent consistency without having to make big plays every game to put up realistic numbers. Most backs in real life do not make a big run per game on average. In fact a complete list of running backs with 16 or more 20 yard carries in a season would be Tiki barber, 1 time Adrian peterson, 1 time Chris Johnson, 1 time That is 3 total seasons in 5 years, around once every 2 years one back out of all the backs in the league will pull this off. They really need to show this in the game and having players maintain their assignments against the run is probably the best way to do it.

You're right. In Madden, there is no force defender, no fill defender, and no pursuit player. These are fundamental defensive concepts that are determined by the called coverage, yet they are left out in Madden, which makes defending outside runs a crapshoot.