I'm starting to think that EA doesn't care about the 3-4 defense

[glitchditcher]

It's really annoying how in franchise mode I can't draft an OLB even though it's my teams biggest need (the pats) because all the OLBs are freakin' 5'11" and 230lbs..... just draft a DE you say ? Nope. They all have coverage ratings in the teens and 20's so theyre overall rating drops to like 40 or so. UGHHH

[gzenius]

this is probably the biggest thing wrong with madden. i'm so tired of playing people who have dwight freeney on the line in a 3-4 and thomas davis or somebody at olb. most people who play a 3-4 do it just so they can have 4 fast lbs and still have speed pass rushers.

[Droopy03]

Quote: Originally Posted by glitchditcher

It's really annoying how in franchise mode I can't draft an OLB even though it's my teams biggest need (the pats) because all the OLBs are freakin' 5'11" and 230lbs..... just draft a DE you say ? Nope. They all have coverage ratings in the teens and 20's so theyre overall rating drops to like 40 or so. UGHHH

+1 it's like how can we draft for our 3-4 defensive scheme? It basically make franchise boring. I really think if we want this in the game it has to start with the community and how important it is. As a matter of fact I'm about to start an Offical 3-4 defensive thread.

[LordTC]

The problem is the current engine doesn't use physics for blocking, there are all sorts of example videos showing how the EA engine doesn't track momentum or anything like that for determining blocks or break tackles.

There is a nice example where a RB gets lifted into the air, lands on 1 foot, and breaks a tackle from the guy who lifted him despite being off balance, having only 1 foot on the ground he throws a bigger heavier guy to the ground.

The only way to get line play right is to have an engine that understands and uses things as basic as:

F = m * a. Of course that requires accurately computing m and a for all collisions, and having good physics for angular momentum.

The reason linemen don't make the kind of cuts wide recievers or half backs do, is partly because of weight issues, but a lot of it is while you are making that kind of cut you have no effective momentum and can easily be pushed over because you aren't bringing force to the point of attack.

This is why running angular momentum is so important in edge rushing.

Spin moves allow conservation of force as well, so are widely used.

Ultimately I think for realistical line play EA needs to:

(1) Track momentum of all players.
(2) Track engagement status as:
(i) No Engagement
(ii) Has one hand engaged
(iii) Has one hand engaged and opponent has one hand engaged
(iv) Has two hands, opponent has one
(v) Has two hands opponent has two
(vi) Has one hand, opponent has two.

And realistically decide what players do when they engage.

Speed Rushers getting 1-hand on would probably push off in some advantageous way, making it harder for the opponent to get a grip on them and getting advantageous momentum relative to their blocker.

Power Rushers getting 1 or both hands on the opponent will either try and crash them to the ground or bull rush them backwards. Ndamukong Suh for instance when he gets one hand on an OL tends to pull them down and forwards in a lot of situations, and anyone who is going forward at the time has a hard time not falling over. With two hands just inside the framework a power guy should try and bull rush their opponent driving them backwards.

This is where momentum should come in. If a 270 pound center moving at rate X engages a 370 pound NT moving at X+4 units of speed in the opposite direction and both players get a two handed grip, the most likely scenario is: The 370 pound NT bullrushes the 270 pound center driving the center backwards at:

(370 * (X+4) - 270 * X )/(370+270) units.

= (370X + 1480)/ 640

which is approximately 58% of X + 2.31 units.

In the same situation if the center where 370 pounds the bull rush would instead be:

1480/740

or approximately 2 units backwards.

I think the only way one can get realistic line play is to reduce it to a few basic moves, and build those moves from the physics up properly. You can expand it to have fancy stuff once the basics are right.

Currently weight doesn't play a factor, and there is only engaged or disengaged. Far to often linemen get completely lost or let someone right by them because they are facing the wrong way so they can't engage, and don't try and get in the way but try and get to the side of the player where they can engage even if it means allowing the player to turn and get an unhindered route to the QB.

[Droopy03]

Quote: Originally Posted by LordTC

The problem is the current engine doesn't use physics for blocking, there are all sorts of example videos showing how the EA engine doesn't track momentum or anything like that for determining blocks or break tackles. There is a nice example where a RB gets lifted into the air, lands on 1 foot, and breaks a tackle from the guy who lifted him despite being off balance, having only 1 foot on the ground he throws a bigger heavier guy to the ground. The only way to get line play right is to have an engine that understands and uses things as basic as: F = m * a. Of course that requires accurately computing m and a for all collisions, and having good physics for angular momentum. The reason linemen don't make the kind of cuts wide recievers or half backs do, is partly because of weight issues, but a lot of it is while you are making that kind of cut you have no effective momentum and can easily be pushed over because you aren't bringing force to the point of attack. This is why running angular momentum is so important in edge rushing. Spin moves allow conservation of force as well, so are widely used. Ultimately I think for realistical line play EA needs to: (1) Track momentum of all players. (2) Track engagement status as: (i) No Engagement (ii) Has one hand engaged (iii) Has one hand engaged and opponent has one hand engaged (iv) Has two hands, opponent has one (v) Has two hands opponent has two (vi) Has one hand, opponent has two. And realistically decide what players do when they engage. Speed Rushers getting 1-hand on would probably push off in some advantageous way, making it harder for the opponent to get a grip on them and getting advantageous momentum relative to their blocker. Power Rushers getting 1 or both hands on the opponent will either try and crash them to the ground or bull rush them backwards. Ndamukong Suh for instance when he gets one hand on an OL tends to pull them down and forwards in a lot of situations, and anyone who is going forward at the time has a hard time not falling over. With two hands just inside the framework a power guy should try and bull rush their opponent driving them backwards. This is where momentum should come in. If a 270 pound center moving at rate X engages a 370 pound NT moving at X+4 units of speed in the opposite direction and both players get a two handed grip, the most likely scenario is: The 370 pound NT bullrushes the 270 pound center driving the center backwards at: (370 * (X+4) - 270 * X )/(370+270) units. = (370X + 1480)/ 640 which is approximately 58% of X + 2.31 units. In the same situation if the center where 370 pounds the bull rush would instead be: 1480/740 or approximately 2 units backwards. I think the only way one can get realistic line play is to reduce it to a few basic moves, and build those moves from the physics up properly. You can expand it to have fancy stuff once the basics are right. Currently weight doesn't play a factor, and there is only engaged or disengaged. Far to often linemen get completely lost or let someone right by them because they are facing the wrong way so they can't engage, and don't try and get in the way but try and get to the side of the player where they can engage even if it means allowing the player to turn and get an unhindered route to the QB.

+1 Good stuff, but you had to have majored in computer programming

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

I watched a show on ESPN, sorry, can't remember what it was called as I was just channel surfing at the time. They had a break down of the 3-4 defense in today's game, basically citing that it's little more than a trimmed down 4-3 with the LB basically blitzing or playing dedicated run coverage on nearly every play.

Well, the other advantage of the 3-4 is difficulty in identifying the 4th rusher and any others. While 4-3 can mix this up with zone blitzing (which is almost like the 4-3 playing like a 3-4 except with a DL instead of a LB in coverage) - neither of which really works, at least not on the AI, in Madden.

I think that's half the problem. You can't "confuse" the AI or the protection by mixing up who rushes, disguising blitzes, etc. (which is also a problem in 4-3 of course).

Seems a little oversimplified to say the 4-3 is nothing more than a trimmed 3-4. Maybe at the base defense, perhaps.

[J Masta J]

Quote: Originally Posted by Droopy03

+1 Good stuff, but you had to have majored in computer programming

Well, I sure hope the guys at Tiburon did.

[Droopy03]

Yea I just wan't them to say they are listening like they did last ear on the camera view everybody wanted.