Route Based Passing in Madden 10?

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Valdarez, I'm truly curious what your expectation here is. Should the WR ignore the ball in the air and run their pattern like a robot? You keep citing that receivers break off their pattern and go after the ball. They damn well better go after the ball. Their job is to CATCH the ball.

Why would the receiver even be looking for the ball when the ball isn't supposed to be thrown until after they make their move/cut? How can a receiver running up the field (not looking backwards), know to adjust to the ball, which is what's happening in Madden all of the time.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Similar to the "psychic" DB play. They break as soon the QB throws (or startst he motion, or you hit the button whatever point they actually do it). Again, they should. They are playing the ball. Obviously there are some issues (DB's running the route before the receiver, head tracking issues that make it look ugly).

Again, no they shouldn't. There's no reason to. The ball isn't supposed to be delivered until they make their cut/move, and they aren't looking at the QB. How can they react to something they aren't expecting, and something they can't see? Answer. They can't, nor should they be able to, but in Madden they do. On every pass.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Are you claiming that players shouldn't react to the ball being thrown? Ridiculous.

No. Logical.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

There are a lot of things about a modern passing game you can't replicate in a video game by AI alone. For example, lets say a slot receiver is supposed to run a corner route (Smash concept). Depending on the look they get at the line, and the action post snap, the defense could leave that slot "uncovered". The slot knows it. The QB knows it. They're going to throw him the ball. Or you have an outside receiver running a Dig/Out. Depending on the coverage that dig might turn into a "streak" or some sort of quasi-curl stop route. If you get a cover 2 look, a Dig isn't a great choice because the OLB is going to be standing in that spot. The open hole is between the corner and safety, wider than the linebacker. The receiver knows it. The quarterback knows it. Throw the ball.

Sounds like a hot route call to me.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

There are also patterns that don't exist in the game. For example, the 4-verts concept (regardless of formation) is based on offensive landmarks, but adjusted based on defense. If you have a post route called, but you get a cover 3 look (pre or post snap), it is really a skinnier post/streak look. The receiver isn't going to run into the safety, the QB isn't going to blindly throw it at him because a "post" is the route. Find the green grass, throw to it, run to it.

I'm pretty tired, but this doesn't make any sense. Why should your WR adjust their route if you haven't called it via a hot route / audible? You're saying the throw/catch anytime passing mechanic is meant to replicate the psychic bond between the QB and his receivers? Now that is ridiculous. We already have audibles and hot routes to modify the routes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

The biggest issue with the passing game is the trajectory of the ball (linebackers making too many plays on deeper throws) and the locomotion in and out of cuts (not enough seperation created, not enough reward for throwing on time).

Agreed that's part of the problem. Not all, but part.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

But the idea that you should limited on when and where you can throw is silly.

Not saying you should be limited on 'when' you throw it, only 'when' the receiver should react to it. They should only react to it 'when' they are expecting the ball, and that's not every step they take while on the field.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

The game can't adjust based on my vision and adjust my receivers, so it damn well shouldn't limit my ability to work within the system.

It can't? I say it can, via the hot routes and the audibles. I can pretty much get everything I want done with it.


The thing that looks really bad with what Madden currently provides, the receiver automajickly adjusting to make a catch on the ball (ignoring their route), is that it puts the receiver off the ball at times, forcing them to jump up in the air to make a catch. And while the ball is thrown roughly along the route, it's always a bit off, but it's hard to tell if that's because the receiver is due tot he receivers adjustment to the ball or the point where the ball is thrown.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

But how do we communicate a receiver to be ready for the ball? Again, they can't read my throughts can they? If you want to tie it to awarness, that'd be alright.

They should be ready to catch the ball any time after they make the cut/move on their route.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

More to the point, what logic should tell the WR to "look."

Pretty easy. After they make their cut/move on the route.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

It's unrealistic to have the WR obey the play-art blindly.

It's unrealistic to have the WR run their route? Really? C'mon.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

What? If your running a checkdown route you better be looking for the ball the second you clear tackle box. Why would you wait to look for the ball? If the blitz is coming, the QB needs to get rid of it now (or else why bother with me running a route?)

Then the move/cut will be pretty early, so of course the receiver should be looking for the ball.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

If a receiver is open, he should look for the ball.

Couldn't disagree more with this statement. When a receiver is running their route, they aren't aware of every player on the field, they don't know if they are open or not. They should expect the ball at the point the ball is meant to be delivered along the route they are running.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

What? If your running a checkdown route you better be looking for the ball the second you clear tackle box. Why would you wait to look for the ball? If the blitz is coming, the QB needs to get rid of it now (or else why bother with me running a route?)

Nah man you're wrong. I have to run my route and get my depth so that it'll free up other routes in the concept. Looking for the ball would slow me down to getting where I'm supposed to be. A blitz is different, but I can read the blitz and react. If there's not a blitz, I'm not looking for the football until the top of my route.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Why? It already works how it is now. Again, are they going to put a microchip into my head so my WR's know what I"m looking at? Then ther eis no "relationship", since it's a video game. Unless it's supposed to convert to a curl or streak. Why? It's already in the game....by letting me throw the ball. Yes, a big flashing icon is the answer, people love gawdy icons on the screen (like the pool-sized red circle). And again, what about people who want to run the dig anway (say, they are good on the sticks and can catch that route better), and don't want it converted? Why stick it to them? What about guys who are expecting a dig route and it never happens so they just end up confused and annoyed? If a receiver is open, he should look for the ball. If you want to tie it too awarness (assuming it is not already) cool, but don't start removing functionality from the game before of a pre-conceived notion of what is "realisitic". There are a lot of ways to play football, lots of schmes and lots of different ways QBs and receivers can react. Don't try and limit them based on an individual opinion of accuracy.

I'm just going to lump the rest of your post because I think I can explain it pretty thouroughly with a simple explanation. Just because it's a video game doesn't mean it should defy logic. Somebody can't adjust and catch something that somebody has no idea that's coming and can't see it. It's not tied to a scheme...it's not tied to even football. It's kinda common sense. You're explanation that if he is open he should look for the ball is also invalid since receivers in Madden can makes plays on the ball when they are not open.

Your dig example for instance. A QB can fit it in their receiver if the receiver is in a position to make a play. If the receiver has his back turned to the QB and in the middle of his route, again how would he know the ball is even coming his way.

[moneal2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Then the move/cut will be pretty early, so of course the receiver should be looking for the ball. Couldn't disagree more with this statement. When a receiver is running their route, they aren't aware of every player on the field, they don't know if they are open or not. They should expect the ball at the point the ball is meant to be delivered along the route they are running.

Are you an nfl caliber receiver? That is the type of guys we are talking about here. They are aware of the player covering them, so they do know when they are open. The receivers break off routes all the time and the qb reads that. Most receivers are taught that they break off their route if the corner blitzes. This does not happen in the madden world now. You are not in control of the receiver so you have to throw the ball. The game compensates the best way that it can.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by moneal2001

Are you an nfl caliber receiver? That is the type of guys we are talking about here. They are aware of the player covering them, so they do know when they are open. The receivers break off routes all the time and the qb reads that. Most receivers are taught that they break off their route if the corner blitzes. This does not happen in the madden world now. You are not in control of the receiver so you have to throw the ball. The game compensates the best way that it can.

Okay, why shouldn't the receiver break off his route if he reads a corner blitz? Why can't that option (to break off or run his route normally) be put in Madden? The WRONG answer is to give the WR psychic abilities.

[sapp99]

Quote: Originally Posted by moneal2001

Are you an nfl caliber receiver? That is the type of guys we are talking about here. They are aware of the player covering them, so they do know when they are open. The receivers break off routes all the time and the qb reads that. Most receivers are taught that they break off their route if the corner blitzes. This does not happen in the madden world now. You are not in control of the receiver so you have to throw the ball. The game compensates the best way that it can.

I'm not an expert, but I'm sure WRs don't "just break out of their routes all the time" in the NFL. When QB und WR see a mismatch or a soft spot in the defense, they communicate and try to attack that pre snap.
The thing you mean might be option routes I believe, because the reciever can choose his route somewhat as far as I know. Thats why it is important to have a good communication between QB and WR, just look at Peyton Manning, his work and understanding with his recievers is legendary and what sets him apart. Especially him and Wayne(a couple of years ago Harrison) were almost always on the same page.
But that does not mean that WRs during the play decdie to break out of their route, there is a reason why timing between QB und WR might the most important key to a succesful passing attack.
I hope my post is somewhat understandable, Im not a native speaker

[Palo20]

This is why more option routes are needed. Most curl routes can be come streaks if the coverage dictates. As Sven mentioned, a good WR will not run a post in the FS, they will skinny it up. So Many routes have options built in, and that would really help separate good WRs. "Good route running" is not just being able to create separation, it's also reading the coverage on the fly and making the same read as the QB.