Route Based Passing in Madden 10?

[sapp99]

Quote: Originally Posted by Palo20

This is why more option routes are needed. Most curl routes can be come streaks if the coverage dictates. As Sven mentioned, a good WR will not run a post in the FS, they will skinny it up. So Manu routes have options built in, and that would really help separate good WRs. "Good route running" is not just being able to create separation, it's also reading the coverage on the fly and making the same read as the QB.

Yep, that would make awareness an important rating for a WR.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

No it's not. Why do you think they had to modify the logic? If you can throw&catch 'anytime', then you have to create ways to cover passes over the field. Some of that is accomplished via a lower ball arc, via LB's jumping making unrealistic catches, via incorrect/unrealistic acceleration, via psychic DBs, etc.

The coverage has never been right. Fix the logic for covering a receiver and you don't need to change anything else.

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Why would the receiver even be looking for the ball when the ball isn't supposed to be thrown until after they make their move/cut? How can a receiver running up the field (not looking backwards), know to adjust to the ball, which is what's happening in Madden all of the time.

Because he is reading and reacting to a coverage.

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Again, no they shouldn't. There's no reason to. The ball isn't supposed to be delivered until they make their cut/move,

Says who?

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and they aren't looking at the QB. How can they react to something they aren't expecting, and something they can't see? Answer. They can't, nor should they be able to, but in Madden they do. On every pass.

You look for the QB once you hit your spot in the zone, which may or may not be what was anticipated in the huddle.
No. Logical.

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Sounds like a hot route call to me.

Ok. And when it changes post-snap?

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I'm pretty tired, but this doesn't make any sense. Why should your WR adjust their route if you haven't called it via a hot route / audible? You're saying the throw/catch anytime passing mechanic is meant to replicate the psychic bond between the QB and his receivers? Now that is ridiculous. We already have audibles and hot routes to modify the routes.

That you can't call once the ball is snapped.

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Not saying you should be limited on 'when' you throw it, only 'when' the receiver should react to it. They should only react to it 'when' they are expecting the ball, and that's not every step they take while on the field.

And they should be expecting the ball at the proper time, when they find the soft spot in coverage, which is when I'm goign to throw it.

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It can't? I say it can, via the hot routes and the audibles. I can pretty much get everything I want done with it.

And, shockingly, you aren't everybody...so I guess we want more options.

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The thing that looks really bad with what Madden currently provides, the receiver automajickly adjusting to make a catch on the ball (ignoring their route), is that it puts the receiver off the ball at times, forcing them to jump up in the air to make a catch. And while the ball is thrown roughly along the route, it's always a bit off, but it's hard to tell if that's because the receiver is due tot he receivers adjustment to the ball or the point where the ball is thrown.

Which is bad, because every pass in the NFL is delivered on stride.

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

They should be ready to catch the ball any time after they make the cut/move on their route.

Unless, of course, that route is no longer viable via the coverage and is changed post-snap...which is how an NFL passing game works.

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It's unrealistic to have the WR run their route? Really? C'mon.

It's unrealistic to change the ability to alter a passing play post snap.

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Couldn't disagree more with this statement. When a receiver is running their route, they aren't aware of every player on the field, they don't know if they are open or not. They should expect the ball at the point the ball is meant to be delivered along the route they are running.

Which is the point in which they are no longer covered. What do you think the receiver is looking at while he's running? The ground? His mom? He's reading the coverage (checking the safeties for the shell, altering depth on the linebackers) and finding the hole.


Once they identify the hole, they are going to expect the ball in it. Which is roughly when I as the user, want to throw it. Dpending on my personal preference I might like different holes in different zones (QB arm, receiver size, individual skills on the user end). So, yes, since I don't expect the Dev team to come over to my house and tweak the WR logic based on what I like I guess I'll just settle for the WR reacting to me (and go a head and tie it to awareness if you want).

[Palo20]

This is why more option routes are needed. Most curl routes can be come streaks if the coverage dictates. As Sven mentioned, a good WR will not run a post in the FS, they will skinny it up. So Many routes have options built in, and that would really help separate good WRs. "Good route running" is not just being able to create separation, it's also reading the coverage on the fly and making the same read as the QB.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by sapp99

I'm not an expert, but I'm sure WRs don't "just break out of their routes all the time" in the NFL. When QB und WR see a mismatch or a soft spot in the defense, they communicate and try to attack that pre snap. The thing you mean might be option routes I believe, because the reciever can choose his route somewhat as far as I know. Thats why it is important to have a good communication between QB and WR, just look at Peyton Manning, his work and understanding with his recievers is legendary and what sets him apart. Especially him and Wayne(a couple of years ago Harrison) were almost always on the same page. But that does not mean that WRs during the play decdie to break out of their route, there is a reason why timing between QB und WR might the most important key to a succesful passing attack. I hope my post is somewhat understandable, Im not a native speaker

Here's a scenario. You want to run a 4-vert concept out of a formation with 2 receivers on both sides. Lets say you only have 1 TE, so you expect 2 high safeties. Since you can't run a seam against 2 high safeties (those safeties are standing on the seams)., the routes bend into the open spots (Post-Post-Corner-Corner).

You come out and you get a 1 high look. 4 verts against a 1 high looks calls for 4 streak patterns (you read the FS, throw off the one he doens't cover).

On the snap 2 things can happen. 1) They can play 1 high (and play cover 3 or 1). 2) They can rotate into a 2-high look and play cover 2 or 4.)

Against 1 high you want the streaks. Against 2 high you want the posts. WR's know this (it's their head going to get taken off if they run a streak against a cover 2 safety). The QB knows this.

On the snap, those slot receivers are looking at that safety. If they see him move to the hash, they're bending those routes. If they see him stay in the middle, they are going to get a little width and attack the seam.

In the current model, that's fine. I leave my posts on, read my safety and I know to throw the ball a tick early and it's a streak. Perfect. If I was to audible those route when I saw a single-high safety, I could never get those posts back.

[Palo20]

Sven, the one problem that arises is when the open hole is the spot where the WR is supposed to be. For instance, on an out route, it can be man coverage with the CB using inside leverage right up on my WR. I want to throw the ball before the break as my WR creates separation toward the sideline. I'm anticipating his break. Often times, the game has me throw it right to the WR, not the spot where the out should be completed.

[Palo20]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Here's a scenario. You want to run a 4-vert concept out of a formation with 2 receivers on both sides. Lets say you only have 1 TE, so you expect 2 high safeties. Since you can't run a seam against 2 high safeties (those safeties are standing on the seams)., the routes bend into the open spots (Post-Post-Corner-Corner). You come out and you get a 1 high look. 4 verts against a 1 high looks calls for 4 streak patterns (you read the FS, throw off the one he doens't cover). On the snap 2 things can happen. 1) They can play 1 high (and play cover 3 or 1). 2) They can rotate into a 2-high look and play cover 2 or 4.) Against 1 high you want the streaks. Against 2 high you want the posts. WR's know this (it's their head going to get taken off if they run a streak against a cover 2 safety). The QB knows this. On the snap, those slot receivers are looking at that safety. If they see him move to the hash, they're bending those routes. If they see him stay in the middle, they are going to get a little width and attack the seam. In the current model, that's fine. I leave my posts on, read my safety and I know to throw the ball a tick early and it's a streak. Perfect. If I was to audible those route when I saw a single-high safety, I could never get those posts back.

I'd rather see the game just draw in the proper routes at the playcall screen and trust that high AWR WRs adjust accordingly and at the proper depth. Just show all the route options.

[sapp99]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Here's a scenario. You want to run a 4-vert concept out of a formation with 2 receivers on both sides. Lets say you only have 1 TE, so you expect 2 high safeties. Since you can't run a seam against 2 high safeties (those safeties are standing on the seams)., the routes bend into the open spots (Post-Post-Corner-Corner). You come out and you get a 1 high look. 4 verts against a 1 high looks calls for 4 streak patterns (you read the FS, throw off the one he doens't cover). On the snap 2 things can happen. 1) They can play 1 high (and play cover 3 or 1). 2) They can rotate into a 2-high look and play cover 2 or 4.) Against 1 high you want the streaks. Against 2 high you want the posts. WR's know this (it's their head going to get taken off if they run a streak against a cover 2 safety). The QB knows this. On the snap, those slot receivers are looking at that safety. If they see him move to the hash, they're bending those routes. If they see him stay in the middle, they are going to get a little width and attack the seam. In the current model, that's fine. I leave my posts on, read my safety and I know to throw the ball a tick early and it's a streak. Perfect. If I was to audible those route when I saw a single-high safety, I could never get those posts back.

I get your point. Seems like both systems have their pros and cons...but more option routes in the playbooks might be a good start.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Madden 11, or some future version that actually has it in the game. Later.

And here I was dealing with a rational person that was interested in the truth, when you seem more concerned with being right (hint: You're not). Instead of learning something you didn't know about, you can stay ignorant as you want. I'm no longer concerned with whether you believe or not.

For the rest of you...

Video # 3 is coming soon.

I got some footage of route being run without any throw just to see where receivers cut. The information is related to whether they are actually completing their routes, or simply reacting to the ball.

I also looked at how the QB delivered the ball on several routes to see if the ball is indeed thrown to a spot on the route, or some arbitrary spot in space: Comebacks routes are indeed thrown to a different spot than Out Routes AS IF the route actually matters.

All will be settled soon... At least for the rational ones among us.

Later