Looks like Progression is pre determined

[splff3000]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gosens6

Because those scub QB's drafted in the lower rounds CAN become stud QB's,Tom Brady says hello. Just like QB's drafted in the top 10 can become busts, Ryan Leaf also waves hi. All i'm saying is things like overall effects other things like contracts in Madden. If Peyton Manning is injured for the season and I take his 71 overall backup QB, put up an MVP season he SHOULD get a huge contract in the off-season, but, that's not possible in Madden because he WON'T progress if his potential is already maxed. For example, Matt Cassel. In Madden it's like GM's know that it was just a fluke season, so of course he goes back to his backup job behind Peyton with his mediocre contract when he should in turn be starting for another team because GM's would be drooling over the type of season he put up. Players play past there so called "potential". What is potential even? What qualifies people to determine how good a player will be? If you're playing in the NFL of course you have some sort of "potential" but of course you can play past it. If anything potential should fluctuate based on playing stats. No matter how people try to spin it, progression is NEEDED like it was in the PS2 days. Going back to my past example I was playing Madden 07 the other day and Manning went down with injury, Sorgi comes in and puts up a HUGE season, obviously a product of the system. The point i'm trying to make is his overall SHOT up tremendously, and he got a huge contract in the off-season with the Browns and became their starting QB. That's how it happens in real life and if that was an actual real life season Sorgis overall would have been in the 80's in Madden. Pre-determined progression is awful and adds no re playability to the franchise mode.

See, you keep looking at it like potential, when in actuality, it's a cap. That's all it is and in real life, players can not play passed their god given abilities. Some guys will never run faster than a 4.5 40. No matter how hard they try, they will never run faster than that. That's what potential is in Madden. Maybe EA needs to change the name of it to "cap" or "max" or something. You guys are getting caught up in the word potential. It's a cap!!! That's all it is. It's been there for years, but for some reason, EA has decided to show it now.

Also, I guess people just keep ignoring the example I gave on the first page about DHB and progression. DHB had a fairly good year for a rookie and increased a lot more than when he had a less than stellar year when I restarted my franchise. It is not predetermined. Now a lot of different players may have similar progression. I have no proof that that doesn't happen, but I know, without a doubt in my mind, that progression is not predetermined. Those people that are talking about sim the season twice and see the player progress the same each season, how about play a season twice. That's what I did and the player didn't progress the same. So you all can BELIEVE what you want, but I KNOW progression is not predetermined because I have seen it with my own eyes.

[Jono078]

Quote: Originally Posted by splff3000

See, you keep looking at it like potential, when in actuality, it's a cap. That's all it is and in real life, players can not play passed their god given abilities. Some guys will never run faster than a 4.5 40. No matter how hard they try, they will never run faster than that. That's what potential is in Madden. Maybe EA needs to change the name of it to "cap" or "max" or something. You guys are getting caught up in the word potential. It's a cap!!! That's all it is. It's been there for years, but for some reason, EA has decided to show it now. Also, I guess people just keep ignoring the example I gave on the first page about DHB and progression. DHB had a fairly good year for a rookie and increased a lot more than when he had a less than stellar year when I restarted my franchise. It is not predetermined. Now a lot of different players may have similar progression. I have no proof that that doesn't happen, but I know, without a doubt in my mind, that progression is not predetermined. Those people that are talking about sim the season twice and see the player progress the same each season, how about play a season twice. That's what I did and the player didn't progress the same. So you all can BELIEVE what you want, but I KNOW progression is not predetermined because I have seen it with my own eyes.

So are you calling me a liar?

I don't know if you've read around on other threads or older posts on how I play franchise.

But I can tell you now I've simmed at least the first season of a franchise AT LEAST 30 times.

It's not always a hard set number they go up. I'm not saying it's pre determined like that.

But I'll give you something to try. Get a young backup QB and make him start every game and do this for 3 franchises, I bet you he progresses the same way each time. Only way he'll progress differently is if he gets injured or if you leave him as a backup.

[Gosens6]

Quote: Originally Posted by splff3000

See, you keep looking at it like potential, when in actuality, it's a cap. That's all it is and in real life, players can not play passed their god given abilities. Some guys will never run faster than a 4.5 40. No matter how hard they try, they will never run faster than that. That's what potential is in Madden. Maybe EA needs to change the name of it to "cap" or "max" or something. You guys are getting caught up in the word potential. It's a cap!!! That's all it is. It's been there for years, but for some reason, EA has decided to show it now. Also, I guess people just keep ignoring the example I gave on the first page about DHB and progression. DHB had a fairly good year for a rookie and increased a lot more than when he had a less than stellar year when I restarted my franchise. It is not predetermined. Now a lot of different players may have similar progression. I have no proof that that doesn't happen, but I know, without a doubt in my mind, that progression is not predetermined. Those people that are talking about sim the season twice and see the player progress the same each season, how about play a season twice. That's what I did and the player didn't progress the same. So you all can BELIEVE what you want, but I KNOW progression is not predetermined because I have seen it with my own eyes.

Okay check this out then, i'm gonna use one example I know of to be for sure. Fire up Madden 10 and sim a season, I can guarantee you that Matt Ryan will progress either 5 or 7 points i'm not sure which one but it happens EVERY time barring season ending injury. It happens whether he has a good or bad season.

Also, i'm not talking about ratings like speed, you can't become faster than you are I already know that. What i'm talking about is overall. The only way they can make the off-season realistic with high contract offers or trade demands or holdouts. Maxed or capped attributes shouldn't be tied to overall rating. Overall rating should be tied to performance, and I know most people don't agree with that but it's the only way we can get a real off-season in Madden and let me explain.

When Tom Brady was drafted, people didn't say boy this guys awareness and arm strength and accuracy is gonna make him a superbowl winning MVP QB so he was drafted in the 6 round. He ALWAYS had the skills, but his play on the field is how we determine him as an elite QB, not his work on the practice field or how he learned from a coach. The way he plays on the field wins him games, superbowls and MVP awards.

They rated him in Madden based on his play on the field, he's rated in the media based on his play on the field, so why can't Maddens franchise mode base guys overall ratings based on their play ON THE FIELD.

It's the same with a guy like JaMarcus Russel. He has all the tools in the world to be a good QB, but look at his play on the field. Absolutely awful and his overall rating reflects that, but, like everyone says it is pre-determined to an extent in Madden so we can't get examples like this in the game.

[splff3000]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jono078

So are you calling me a liar?

If you're saying progression is predetermined, then yeah. I don't know how you can come here and say SIM a season to determine progression. Of course it's going to be close to the same when you sim a season. If you sim a season 30 times, the Colts will make it to the Superbowl more than half of those times. Are you saying the Colts going to the Superbowl is predetermined as well? The sim engine isn't sophisticated enough to be doing experiments like that with it. If you sim a season 30 times, the Colts will make the playoffs probably 28 or 29 of those times. That's the same thing that's happening with progression when you sim a season. It's gonna be very similar every time you sim.

On second thought, I'll say this. If you sim the games, it's possible that progression will be predetermined, according to Jono. If you play the game, it is NOT predetermined. I don't really have enough experience as far as simming goes to say whether it is predetermined or not for that, so I will not argue against that, but I will argue against it being predetermined if you play your games because I DO have experience with that. I think that is a fair enough compromise. So I take back the part about calling you a liar. You "play" the game differently so you may be getting different results.

[Gosens6]

Quote: Originally Posted by splff3000

If you're saying progression is predetermined, then yeah. I don't know how you can come here and say SIM a season to determine progression. Of course it's going to be close to the same when you sim a season. If you sim a season 30 times, the Colts will make it to the Superbowl more than half of those times. Are you saying the Colts going to the Superbowl is predetermined as well? The sim engine isn't sophisticated enough to be doing experiments like that with it. If you sim a season 30 times, the Colts will make the playoffs probably 28 or 29 of those times. That's the same thing that's happening with progression when you sim a season. It's gonna be very similar every time you sim. On second thought, I'll say this. If you sim the games, it's possible that progression will be predetermined, according to Jono. If you play the game, it is NOT predetermined. I don't really have enough experience as far as simming goes to say whether it is predetermined or not for that, so I will not argue against that, but I will argue against it being predetermined if you play your games because I DO have experience with that. I think that is a fair enough compromise. So I take back the part about calling you a liar. You "play" the game differently so you may be getting different results.

Okay then what you're saying then is YOUR players progression isn't pre-determined, which is fine, but, the rest of the league has to suffer because everyone else's is pre-determined when simming. I don't see how that can be a reasonable exception.

[splff3000]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gosens6

Okay check this out then, i'm gonna use one example I know of to be for sure. Fire up Madden 10 and sim a season, I can guarantee you that Matt Ryan will progress either 5 or 7 points i'm not sure which one but it happens EVERY time barring season ending injury. It happens whether he has a good or bad season. Also, i'm not talking about ratings like speed, you can't become faster than you are I already know that. What i'm talking about is overall. The only way they can make the off-season realistic with high contract offers or trade demands or holdouts. Maxed or capped attributes shouldn't be tied to overall rating. Overall rating should be tied to performance, and I know most people don't agree with that but it's the only way we can get a real off-season in Madden and let me explain. When Tom Brady was drafted, people didn't say boy this guys awareness and arm strength and accuracy is gonna make him a superbowl winning MVP QB so he was drafted in the 6 round. He ALWAYS had the skills, but his play on the field is how we determine him as an elite QB, not his work on the practice field or how he learned from a coach. The way he plays on the field wins him games, superbowls and MVP awards. They rated him in Madden based on his play on the field, he's rated in the media based on his play on the field, so why can't Maddens franchise mode base guys overall ratings based on their play ON THE FIELD. It's the same with a guy like JaMarcus Russel. He has all the tools in the world to be a good QB, but look at his play on the field. Absolutely awful and his overall rating reflects that, but, like everyone says it is pre-determined to an extent in Madden so we can't get examples like this in the game.

See my above post about simming.

As far as Tom Brady goes, I drafted a QB in the 6th round, can't remember his name, Peoples maybe? . He came out as a 48 ovr but had A potential. That's your Tom Brady right there. He probably wasn't as low as 48 coming out of college, but there's your example of Tom Brady right there. They're in the draft, you just gotta find them. Just like NE had to find Tom Brady. For every Tom Brady, there are about 30 or 40 other QB's that never pan out in the NFL. Brady was the exception, not the rule.

[cubsball899]

Quote: Originally Posted by splff3000

If you're saying progression is predetermined, then yeah. I don't know how you can come here and say SIM a season to determine progression. Of course it's going to be close to the same when you sim a season. If you sim a season 30 times, the Colts will make it to the Superbowl more than half of those times. Are you saying the Colts going to the Superbowl is predetermined as well? The sim engine isn't sophisticated enough to be doing experiments like that with it. If you sim a season 30 times, the Colts will make the playoffs probably 28 or 29 of those times. That's the same thing that's happening with progression when you sim a season. It's gonna be very similar every time you sim. On second thought, I'll say this. If you sim the games, it's possible that progression will be predetermined, according to Jono. If you play the game, it is NOT predetermined. I don't really have enough experience as far as simming goes to say whether it is predetermined or not for that, so I will not argue against that, but I will argue against it being predetermined if you play your games because I DO have experience with that. I think that is a fair enough compromise. So I take back the part about calling you a liar. You "play" the game differently so you may be getting different results.

so, do you play every game for every team during ur franchises? no i guarantee you don't so then what happens during those other simmed games the players on the non user controlled teams progress the same way every time

[Gosens6]

Quote: Originally Posted by splff3000

See my above post about simming. As far as Tom Brady goes, I drafted a QB in the 6th round, can't remember his name, Peoples maybe? . He came out as a 48 ovr but had A potential. That's your Tom Brady right there. He probably wasn't as low as 48 coming out of college, but there's your example of Tom Brady right there. They're in the draft, you just gotta find them. Just like NE had to find Tom Brady. For every Tom Brady, there are about 30 or 40 other QB's that never pan out in the NFL. Brady was the exception, not the rule.

The thing i'm trying to explain though is people can play past there so called "potential" and can also underplay it. Honestly that word is just a mask trying to steer people away from the fact that progression is pre-determined.

If people thought Tom Brady has an "A" grade in potential he would have never slipped to the sixth round. Just like if everyone knew JaMarcus Russel, or Ryan Leafs or JP Losmans or any other failed QB's potential rating was an F then no one would have drafted them that high. And i'm only speaking that their potential would be an F in Madden terms. These guys never progressed and the only way that happens if their potential is C or lower, it's ridiculous. There is no such thing as potential the way Madden puts it, that word should be banned from sports video games.