Oh no...this is not good E3 footage.

[MaxMan1000]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

@1:39 of that Madden 11 video, the Jets receiver drops the pass. That's a negative play... I mean, last I checked an incomplete pass is a negative play... so why are the Jets celebrating in the next scene? Wow.

I've seen this happen in Madden 10. That's not good. It's got to be a glitch they haven't been able to solve.

[g2thecore]

Quote: Originally Posted by bo4345

Madden is like the crazy wife/husband you should really divorce, but you don't cause of your kids. Seeing this video legitimately turned me off of this game, but I'm still gonna buy it, because what else am I gonna do?

That's exactly why we're stuck in this mess. I understand why you have to play the game, but why support it if you're not happy with it? I divorced my wife when I became unhappy...Same goes for Madden. I can live without it until it's fixed.

[stlstudios189]

I am thinking of skipping madden but, I think my wife will be getting it for me anyways. (man I love her) it's just like in comic books I keep buying the series waiting for it to get better but, eventually I end the run. Madden has been on a run with me since 1991.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

I dont agree with this.I dont have problems stopping RC but to say players shouldnt expect in-game players AI to work,doesnt make sense,IMO.According to your logic,a USER shouldnt expect ANY of his in-game players do anything on their own.DB Revis shouldnt play like a shutdown corner unless they "possess" him.WR Fitzgerald shouldnt have great hands unless they "possess" him and hold the catch button.RB Jones-Drew shouldnt be elusive unless they "possess" him and execute juke moves.Pulling Guards of the OL shouldnt pancake defenders unless they "possess" him and execute it etc.

People are well within their right to expect the AI controlled defender to do it's job against the the CPU... All things being equal, the AI will defend CPU players properly. But when a human takes control of his receiver, things are no longer equal. Skilled humans always have the advantage over the CPU.

"YOU HAVE TO USE WHAT YOU GOT TO GET WHAT YOU WANT."

Skilled players will know how to place the ball away from defenders, how to adjust the receiver's route to make the catch, and the best place to throw so that the receiver can run afterward. Things only practice can perfect.

Every play you have a choice of letting the CPU make the play, and in many instances it performs well without any human intervention, or 'possessing' the defender. But it's up to you to know what instructions you give the AI, the drawbacks of those instructions, what to do when your strategy leaves you exposed on a play, and how to instinctively execute when the time comes.

In zone defenses, these RC-able passes are thrown to a spot the defender can't reach. The CPU receiver wouldn't be able to reach them either. But when a human conceives and plans his attack to take advantage of zone defenses, they are also attacking users that can't/don't/won't 'possess' their players.

It's not EA's fault when one player uses his 'possession' powers while his opponent does not. It's not EA's fault when players give the AI instructions that leave their defenders exposed to plays like the RC.

It's easier to blame EA when we are responsible for the failure. 9 times out of 10, zone coverage is beaten by the RC... Call Man coverage and the RC isn't a problem. Switch and make plays and the RC isn't a problem. If players REFUSE to use the tools available, no amount of adding tools is going to change that fact.

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

It's cool if this is how you feel Madden should play but I not only disagree but think the opposite should apply.I have had a saying for video game football since the early 90s."I dont control Pro Bowlers".That means these guys' rating should be enough to make them better at their position using AI than me controlling them.I should be concerned with my less talented players and getting max effectiveness out of them by "possessing" them and good play calling.That way I can be confident in my shutdown corner while I roll my pass coverage to the weaker CB,like in real life.

Fortunately, if you have a shutdown corner, you can play him as such. Corners aren't called SHUTDOWN because they are good at playing zone. RC abuses zone defenses... SHUTDOWN corners play MAN. If you play MAN, you won't have much trouble with the RC even if your corner isn't the shutdown type. Even an average corner can defend the RC in man coverage.

Oddly, the RC-able throw illustrates how a ball can be placed at a point that is neither on the receiver's route nor straight ahead of his current path allowing players to direct the ball to a spot on the field BETWEEN ZONES, which is another item that some members of this community have stated cannot be done.

Later

[Netherscourge]

Sheldon Brown = Shutdown Corner - press covers, bump-and-run, more physical, can get beat deep if receiver get's free and there's no safety over-the-top.

Asante Samuel = Cover Corner - zone coverage, gambles more on jumping passes, less physical, normally doesn't get beat deep but get's beat on slants and double-moves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBh2bDSrpRg



Just for comparison purposes. Both are great players. One has more INT's then the other, but the other get's less passes thrown his way due to the press coverage.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

People are well within their right to expect the AI controlled defender to do it's job against the the CPU... All things being equal, the AI will defend CPU players properly. But when a human takes control of his receiver, things are no longer equal. Skilled humans always have the advantage over the CPU. "YOU HAVE TO USE WHAT YOU GOT TO GET WHAT YOU WANT." Skilled players will know how to place the ball away from defenders, how to adjust the receiver's route to make the catch, and the best place to throw so that the receiver can run afterward. Things only practice can perfect. Every play you have a choice of letting the CPU make the play, and in many instances it performs well without any human intervention, or 'possessing' the defender. But it's up to you to know what instructions you give the AI, the drawbacks of those instructions, what to do when your strategy leaves you exposed on a play, and how to instinctively execute when the time comes. In zone defenses, these RC-able passes are thrown to a spot the defender can't reach. The CPU receiver wouldn't be able to reach them either. But when a human conceives and plans his attack to take advantage of zone defenses, they are also attacking users that can't/don't/won't 'possess' their players. It's not EA's fault when one player uses his 'possession' powers while his opponent does not. It's not EA's fault when players give the AI instructions that leave their defenders exposed to plays like the RC. It's easier to blame EA when we are responsible for the failure. 9 times out of 10, zone coverage is beaten by the RC... Call Man coverage and the RC isn't a problem. Switch and make plays and the RC isn't a problem. If players REFUSE to use the tools available, no amount of adding tools is going to change that fact. Fortunately, if you have a shutdown corner, you can play him as such. Corners aren't called SHUTDOWN because they are good at playing zone. RC abuses zone defenses... SHUTDOWN corners play MAN. If you play MAN, you won't have much trouble with the RC even if your corner isn't the shutdown type. Even an average corner can defend the RC in man coverage. Oddly, the RC-able throw illustrates how a ball can be placed at a point that is neither on the receiver's route nor straight ahead of his current path allowing players to direct the ball to a spot on the field BETWEEN ZONES, which is another item that some members of this community have stated cannot be done. Later

You are trying to have it both ways,IMO.If what you are saying about Human gamers "possessing" players in-game is true than the defenders AI is irrevelant to RC,which is how it is sometimes in Madden and what I have a problem with.However,if what you are saying about the shutdown corner is true than "possessing" that in-game player should not be neccessary in Madden,like Im saying.You cant have it both ways.

What I mean is if you take a good zone corner like Ronde Barber or a good zone saftey like Ed Reed,a zone defense should stop the RC.However,by your own admission,zone AI wont stop RC,man AI defense or "possessing" the player to manually defend it is needed.Thats an AI/EA problem not a gamer strategy problem.Like you said a shutdown corner should be good at MAN defense,therefore a good zone DB should be good at ZONE defense through AI without having to be USER "possessed".

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

You are trying to have it both ways,IMO.If what you are saying about Human gamers "possessing" players in-game is true than the defenders AI is irrevelant to RC,which is how it is sometimes in Madden and what I have a problem with.However,if what you are saying about the shutdown corner is true than "possessing" that in-game player should not be neccessary in Madden,like Im saying.You cant have it both ways. What I mean is if you take a good zone corner like Ronde Barber or a good zone saftey like Ed Reed,a zone defense should stop the RC.However,by your own admission,zone AI wont stop RC,man AI defense or "possessing" the player to manually defend it is needed.Thats an AI/EA problem not a gamer strategy problem.Like you said a shutdown corner should be good at MAN defense,therefore a good zone DB should be good at ZONE defense through AI without having to be USER "possessed".

I'm not so sure I'm the one that wants it both ways:

If you call zone, you don't want your defenders playing man coverage do you? Good. They're not going to and THEY SHOULDN'T. Wanting it 'both ways' is calling a zone that doesn't defend the reception point while expecting it to defend the reception point. When we call plays, we are actually telling the AI what we want it to do. Tell it to do the wrong thing, it does the wrong thing.

Remember when I said in another post that this game is all about personnel, position and timing... Same here. The defender AI is 100% relevant. If you call a basic zone, you're telling the AI to allow the rocket catch because a player who is good at doing it will almost ALWAYS beat zone by throwing to a spot where there are NO DEFNEDERS that can effect the pass attempt (aka how you beat any zone). The AI WILL STOP the rocket catch when players call better coverages (practically any man defense and several non-basic zones).

For instance, if I know my opponent is going deep on 3rd and a mile, there are some plays that don't make sense to call because it's going to put my defenders at a postional disadvantage. If I'm not combining some element of personnel or timing to my attack, I'll lose the position battle whenever the offense uses position AND timing by throwing passes a defender won't have TIME to get to.

I think you're missing the strategic point of "Position" that is all important... Zone defense against the RC fails for the for the same reason that a defensive end pass rushing isn't going to bat a pass away 50 yards down field; he's not in position.

The RC is thrown in a way that makes the defenders who are too far away to react to the pass a non-factor. It's not an issue with the AI, because the AI is defending in zone coverage just like they should. If you want to have your corner stop the RC, you shouldn't be playing zone (or you have to get REALLY creative with them).

Not so oddly, even an average corner will stop the RC playing man coverage, but even the best players will have trouble in zone BECAUSE this tactic specifically targets zone defenses by throwing the ball in a way that defenders CAN'T play the ball.

Even if you have a great zone defender like Ed Reed, he's only going to be able to play one area. Throw the ball far enough away from where Ed Reed is setting up in his zone and he won't be able to make a play on the ball. The MOST he's going to be able to do is disrupt the catch. If he's in the deep middle an the ball is caught near the sideline there won't be anything he can do. Likewise, if the ball is thrown 10 yards in front of him he won't be able to play that one either...

The AI will play zone if you call zone. Meaning, while we only have direct control of one player at a time, we indeed control all 11 although 10 guys are indirectly controlled. Calling a simple zone to stop the RC is simply the WRONG WAY TO STOP IT. Always has been. Always will be.

TIMING - If you want to get creative with a zone defense you can setup so that the defender covering the zone where the RC is caught arrives in his assigned zone around the same time that the receiver arrives. Arriving too soon gives the receiver an advantage because the defender must leave where he's setup to react to the receiver. If he arrives at the same time, he sticks closer the the receiver and can make a play on the ball (or delay the throw).

Calling zone is using POSITION to attack the offense. The pass for RC catches is thrown to take advantage of the defensive position. Don't look to the AI to account for legitimate positional issues...

Play the Man (personnel) and the RC isn't an issue.
Rush the throw (tempo) and the RC is less of an issue.

You may also use position in conjunction with timing, or personnel along with position. But calling basic zones to attack the RC with position alone is the wrong thing to do and has been for at least the last 7 years (jetpacking, RC, or any high jumping animation included).

Or lastly, you could 'possess' defenders to open up basic zone plays as a remedy for the RC. In fact, if you make the mistake of calling zone against an RC throw, 'possessing' your defender is the only way to make a play when the play called in the huddle give the AI instructions to allow offensive positions in holes in the zones (where the RC is ALWAYS CAUGHT).

So it's not that I want it both ways... I fully expect players to pick a play knowing both the possible positive and negative outcomes. One of the negative outcomes to running basic zones is you're likely to get RC'd on. People must understand this as one of the decision factors for picking their plays, and NOT expect the AI to bail them out of a bad decision just because AI stands for Artificial Intelligence...

There's a point where responsibility rests with the user... Several points actually. Blaming the AI for AI failures is one thing, blaming it for ours is quite another. Since every copy of Madden 11 is the same, the difference is the connection between the couch and the keyboard. The AI on many people's Madden 10 works against the RC when the right plays are called.

Later

[Skyboxer]

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

Not a single chance. Receiver control is half the game. USER CATCHING is half the offense. The user catching in madden so far has been clunky and unresponsive. It was perfect on last gen. NCAA has user catching right.

For a while now I've bee an opponent against user catching, especially on D.
Not that I want to take control away from the players but a combination of the "speed burst" being to affective, the field really being to small in relation to the players and no real player momentum led to too many user picks. Waaay too many.... We had to use a house rule that you couldn't switch men while ball was in the air just so the INTs wouldn't be so whack.