Passing System

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

I dont agree. Maddens' current passing system allows gamers to lead the pass without a cursor. From my understanding of what read and lead allowed gamers to do, this is basically accomplished with Maddens' current passing system. Read and Lead resulted in more freedom of where exactly you wanted to throw but the AI would still affect where it went. If not, there would be no diffference in P. Manning and Rex Grossman. The only major difference with Read and Lead versus what Madden has now, is the missing cursor, IMO. Im not saying my idea is the end all idea for passing but I do think it would be more in line with how EA normally upgrades Madden. We are all aware of EAs' hesitance in adding features from other NFL football games. Seems our best hope would be of them taking something like the "vision cone" along with RBP, from past Maddens and add a different version of them to Madden now. Also, I think the Madden instruction manual should do a better job of explaining what is currently in the game. Not talking about you specifically LT but some people probably arent aware of or understand, what they can already do with Maddens' current passing system.

I am not arguing that Tiburon would be more likely to use what you suggested for obvious reasons, but what they are likely to do and what I think they should do are two separate issues.

As far as you saying that the total control passing is the same, it's not the same by a long shot. I'm talking about throwing the ball anywhere on the field at any time. What we have now is so limited in comparison it's not in the same league. Yes you can lead the receiver a little this way or that way, but it is still tied to the receiver. It's still primarily AI dependent of where the ball will go. I'll give you an example.

Try to consistently overthrow or underthrow your receiver. And by over or under throw, I mean by a lot. Throw a pass and hold the joystick down the entire time and try to drill a pass in the dirt. If you did this 100 times, I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't throw the pass in the dirt more than a couple times. Furthermore, I'd be willing to wager that almost all of those passes result in a catchable ball. So the question is, if holding the stick all the way, for an inordinate amount time in any direction still results in a ball that is catchable the overwhelming majority of the time, what kind of control do you really have?

I want the freedom to put the ball anywhere on the field at any time. Yes, the ratings would still come into play and the AI would have some say as to it's placement, it is not anywhere near as hamstrung as we are now. Not by a long shot.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

It doesnt! LOL! I was refering to MY IDEA of a new passing system option in an earlier post on this thread, not the current one in Madden. We both want the same thing, a different passing option, we just have a difference of opinion on what that should be. No problem.

The throwing across the body and things like that is largely an animation thing. Not solely, but largely.

In 2K you couldn't throw across your body because if you passed while the QB was facing the wrong way, an animation kicked in that had the QB stop his momentum, turn around, set his feet, and then throw. So it wasn't that you couldn't throw at anytime like in Madden, but if you did throw while your back was turned or you were in a full sprint or looking to the opposite side of the field, the animation AI would actually make you wait to release the ball after the QB did all of the things that a QB did in real life.

The pass at anytime mechanic isn't really the issue for why you can throw all kinds of crazy passes in Madden. The fact that there are split second animations that allow you to go from sprinting away from the line pf scrimmage to spinning completely around and passing the ball in th blink of an eye, is.

Build penalties into the animation system for doing things the wrong way, and many of them cease to be issues. This is what I thought (hoped) they would have done with the new loco system, and why I am so disappointed in it now.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

The throwing across the body and things like that is largely an animation thing. Not solely, but largely. In 2K you couldn't throw across your body because if you passed while the QB was facing the wrong way, an animation kicked in that had the QB stop his momentum, turn around, set his feet, and then throw. So it wasn't that you couldn't throw at anytime like in Madden, but if you did throw while your back was turned or you were in a full sprint or looking to the opposite side of the field, the animation AI would actually make you wait to release the ball after the QB did all of the things that a QB did in real life. The pass at anytime mechanic isn't really the issue for why you can throw all kinds of crazy passes in Madden. The fact that there are split second animations that allow you to go from sprinting away from the line pf scrimmage to spinning completely around and passing the ball in th blink of an eye, is. Build penalties into the animation system for doing things the wrong way, and many of them cease to be issues. This is what I thought (hoped) they would have done with the new loco system, and why I am so disappointed in it now.

You are preaching to choir again on this, I know all about 2k, it's what I mainly played from 1999 til the exclusive license. (with some Madden sprinkled in at family gatherings)

I fully agree that Madden devs currently have the tools to fix alot of stuff that's unrealistic but they just havent. I guess they feel these flaws are part of their signature style like Michael Strahans' gape between his teeth. LOL!

[Tengo Juego]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

The throwing across the body and things like that is largely an animation thing. Not solely, but largely. In 2K you couldn't throw across your body because if you passed while the QB was facing the wrong way, an animation kicked in that had the QB stop his momentum, turn around, set his feet, and then throw. So it wasn't that you couldn't throw at anytime like in Madden, but if you did throw while your back was turned or you were in a full sprint or looking to the opposite side of the field, the animation AI would actually make you wait to release the ball after the QB did all of the things that a QB did in real life. The pass at anytime mechanic isn't really the issue for why you can throw all kinds of crazy passes in Madden. The fact that there are split second animations that allow you to go from sprinting away from the line pf scrimmage to spinning completely around and passing the ball in th blink of an eye, is. Build penalties into the animation system for doing things the wrong way, and many of them cease to be issues. This is what I thought (hoped) they would have done with the new loco system, and why I am so disappointed in it now.

Excellent post.

[beastwork]

Quote:

Skyboxer 10:00 AM 06-30-2010 See for me that's exactly what being able to throw anywhere gives you and more. Issues solved right away: Overthrows and underthrows (Every year this is asked if it's in the game)

The only reason i'm not a fan of being able to throw the ball any where on the field is because stick skill immediately becomes the most important factor. some people don't play FPS games simply because they can't aim well enough to be effective. I would like to see the madden pendulum swing the other way towards strategy, not sticks, being king. right now i can get schooled by people who know nothing about football becuase the strategy has not been implemented well.

Let's face it, madden will always be about mass appeal and sometimes the improvements we suggest would IMO overly complicate things. there are fine points that should be represented, and can be done so without allowing stick skills to always win out over strategy

[RaiderKtulu]

Ok. I think I've come up with a way to simulate reality without changing Madden's camera angle.

Here we go:

The actual passing mechanism would be like Fever's read & lead. The speed at which you can move the cursor would be tied into the QBs accuracy rating.

Now for the receiver selection - basically steal from Tecmo Bowl, to simulate the need to have progressions rather than just throwing to whoever happens to be open. The receivers would be numbered on the play from 1 to 5, with 5 being the emergency check down. Also allow the user to select the order for each play if they choose. The speed at which you can switch between receivers would be tied into the awareness rating. So, a Manning can pretty much switch at will, while a Jamarcus Russell would feel rather lagged when trying to switch.

There would be 2 buttons for receiver selection. One button which goes in order from 1 to 5, and one button which jumps from wherever you are to 5 as a quick checkdown - and once you hit that button you can't switch again. We can even add in holding a trigger while pushing the button to fake switching as a method to look off the defense. So, you start the play focused on #1. Then you literally go through your progression and throw the ball.

Obviously, I'm sure it would still piss people off if they have a receiver open and cant switch to him fast enough, but that's going to happen in any system where there's no actual blind spot.

Thoughts?

[Skyboxer]

Quote: Originally Posted by beastwork

The only reason i'm not a fan of being able to throw the ball any where on the field is because stick skill immediately becomes the most important factor. some people don't play FPS games simply because they can't aim well enough to be effective. I would like to see the madden pendulum swing the other way towards strategy, not sticks, being king. right now i can get schooled by people who know nothing about football becuase the strategy has not been implemented well. Let's face it, madden will always be about mass appeal and sometimes the improvements we suggest would IMO overly complicate things. there are fine points that should be represented, and can be done so without allowing stick skills to always win out over strategy

Believe it or not I'm a huge proponent of making coaching and knowing strategy > Stick skills...

I just think we need soemthing fresh in the passing game. If the proper adjustments are made(QB ACC and AWR ratings matter) to the throw anywhere system then I think it would be a nice option to have.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by beastwork

The only reason i'm not a fan of being able to throw the ball any where on the field is because stick skill immediately becomes the most important factor. some people don't play FPS games simply because they can't aim well enough to be effective. I would like to see the madden pendulum swing the other way towards strategy, not sticks, being king. right now i can get schooled by people who know nothing about football becuase the strategy has not been implemented well. Let's face it, madden will always be about mass appeal and sometimes the improvements we suggest would IMO overly complicate things. there are fine points that should be represented, and can be done so without allowing stick skills to always win out over strategy

I hear what you are saying but the bottom line is that it is a videogame. People with better dexterity will always have an advantage in any game over someone that doesn't, if all else is equal. The idea is to make the other things matter enough so that Football knowledge can level the playing field or even tip it in your favor, but there is no way that someone with great "stick skills" is not going to be a challenge for someone who doesn't, in ANY game. That's just a fact. It's not text based. You actually have to play the game.

This is no different than real life. Do you think that if you fielded a team of 11 of the greatest Football coaches and pitted them against 11 of the greatest athletes, that the 60 year old geniuses would win? Of course not. All of their knowledge is not going to totally overcome the fact that the other team is physically able to do things that they can not, and for all of the intricate strategies that go on in Football, make no mistake, it's still a physical game and having the best athletes is almost always the most important thing. Now if you combined the best athlete with superior knowledge of the game, then you get the Mike Jordan's of the world.

It's the same with videogames. If you have the knowledge and the stick skills, you should be a beast. But it's not like the way Madden is presently constituted that a sticks player with little knowledge won't be a problem for someone with knowledge and no sticks, so where is the change?

To address the CBP issue directly, as Sky and I have said, you would still have ratings that affected the cursor as far as accuracy and maybe even have awareness determine the speed that the cursor moves, so the Peyton's will still be distinguishable from the Jamarcus'.

As for the FPS thing. I don't know what to tell you. Between all of the FPS' that have come out over the years, there are probably people in the 100's of millions that have the ability to play them to varying degrees, so it isn't a rare skill by any stretch of the imagination. With practice, it will come. If it doesn't, and you are just one of those people that is just unable to play them... I don't know what to tell you lol.

Not everyone has the same ability to play games. It's not a birth right to be able to play all games. I know many people that can't do a Sho-Ryu-Ken in Street Fighter lol. Not trying to insult you, I'm just saying that I'm sure that you know people that don't have the same level of skill as you in certain games as well. But again, there's probably 100's of millions of people that can and do play FPS' so who would they really be alienating by doing this?