WHY are the DB's making their cuts BEFORE recievers

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

While we are talking about 2k and madden for a quick moment, I will say Madden's zones are better than 2k's zone coverage. 2k likes to abandon coverage a lot. Madden likes to drop back too far. Too many times a deep middle third safety will watch a pass come his way and then abandon his zone in both 2k5 and more so in 2k8, mostly by non-star rated players. If you didn't have an NFL safety, you were screwed. The biggest offender of psychic play is when a defender has his back turned to the receiver and makes the cut at the same time, and sometimes even before the receiver, not even when they are running stride for stride. My point about last gen madden was how, just recently when playing it again, I have seen user and computer defenders turn their backa player running a deep in or out thinking they were running a go route. Also, in all the replays I have been watching the defender never cut at the same moment or before the receiver's cut. Even if the game has the defensive player run the same routes to emulate man coverage, something happened between this and last generation Madden where the defender is getting priority over the offensive player. But... we all know about this... EA knows about this, and honestly I don't understand thier line of thinking when it comes to prioritizing bugs in the game. it's one thing to say "When we fix one bug, another pops up" and it is quite another to have the same predictable bugs appear year in and year out where I can play a game of Madden for the first time and know certain issues will still be in the game, and how to recreate them. A perfect example this year is how Phil talked about pulling guards being a crap shoot in Madden for years and NOW they fixed it [in the dev. video blog.] I am sure the fix wasn't "EAsy" however, the "cause" of the problem to my understanding [to quote the video] was linemen changed their minds too often, or in computer logic, they had targeting issues. They would change who they were targeting to block.

I disagree with this for one reason. While 2K8 definitely had coverage issues in zone, they had one big advantage on Madden. They were aware of receivers passing into their zones.

In Madden, the way the play is drawn up is EXACTLY where the defenders stand. And by stand, I mean stand perfectly still like a statue. Regardless of what is going on in front or behind them. A receiver could be standing right next to a zone defender and the game doesn't acknowledge their presence, at all, until the pass is thrown.

I would rather there be windows to pass because a zoner was passing a receiver off to the next zone then because he was standing absolutely flat footed on the exact circle that's on the play art. Not saying that 2K8 had people leave their zones only because of passing them off. There are definitely bad AI issues at work here too, but I will give them credit for having something that Madden has never, and probably never will have. Player awareness.

2K8 was a mess in some areas. I preferred 2K5, but with the HD era, playing that game became much more difficult lol. 2K8 was a first attempt on current gen consoles though, for a game that they did not put as much effort into because they weren't sure how it would do. Given that, I still think it was a pretty good first effort.

[REDRZA]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

While we are talking about 2k and madden for a quick moment, I will say Madden's zones are better than 2k's zone coverage. 2k likes to abandon coverage a lot. Madden likes to drop back too far. Too many times a deep middle third safety will watch a pass come his way and then abandon his zone in both 2k5 and more so in 2k8, mostly by non-star rated players. If you didn't have an NFL safety, you were screwed. The biggest offender of psychic play is when a defender has his back turned to the receiver and makes the cut at the same time, and sometimes even before the receiver, not even when they are running stride for stride. My point about last gen madden was how, just recently when playing it again, I have seen user and computer defenders turn their backa player running a deep in or out thinking they were running a go route. Also, in all the replays I have been watching the defender never cut at the same moment or before the receiver's cut. Even if the game has the defensive player run the same routes to emulate man coverage, something happened between this and last generation Madden where the defender is getting priority over the offensive player. But... we all know about this... EA knows about this, and honestly I don't understand thier line of thinking when it comes to prioritizing bugs in the game. it's one thing to say "When we fix one bug, another pops up" and it is quite another to have the same predictable bugs appear year in and year out where I can play a game of Madden for the first time and know certain issues will still be in the game, and how to recreate them. A perfect example this year is how Phil talked about pulling guards being a crap shoot in Madden for years and NOW they fixed it [in the dev. video blog.] I am sure the fix wasn't "EAsy" however, the "cause" of the problem to my understanding [to quote the video] was linemen changed their minds too often, or in computer logic, they had targeting issues. They would change who they were targeting to block.

This was very much a problem on last gen consoles too.I witnessed it first hand at a tournament. I was playing at the time what what considered to be a "top" player. I basically came out Vanilla and ran man cover 2 with bump the whole first half. The score was 7-3 him. In the second half, playing the same defense, his WR was literally losing my defender. I couldn't figure out what changed really in the heat of the game. He went on to score around 45 more pts, destroying me (and i am a decent Madden player). He told me after the game that the DB was running the exact same route as the WR when playing man, and that if he ran an "out and up" against man coverage bump, On the second move, the "up", the WR gained significant seperation due to the DB recovering from the initial bump animation, coupled with the dopey DB still having to do the "out" LMAO! So basically every time in man coverage with press, he would just lead the pass up after the second move and i was getting torched. What was weird is that when not pressing, the DB played the route MUCH better.

Its a "legacy" problem. These are not "bug fixes". they are hard coded problems that they simply cannot "fix" because they are problems in the engine itself. They can band-aid, tune and tweak, but on some level those problems haven't really gone away. Same with suction blocking etc.

In many ways, EA's football titles are severely outdated, especially in AI and physics. They are running on old, outdated code. They get away with it for many reasons. One, the economy is bad so they won't spend more to fix it. Second, even with all the whining we do as fans, the game sells each and every year. So if they can sell while spending and investing minimally, it's plain bad business to invest more than they have to. Lastly, they have zero competition in the football market.

[footballdude1971]

The DB AI is no different than the AI in Tecmo Bowl IMO. I think it has to be that way or passing would be way out of balance in this game. Until they figure out how to require the player to use more skill to pass (location, speed) they can't change the the way the DB AI functions because passing is just as scripted. It's all one big predetermined outcome once you hit the pass button and pass to the receiver you want it to go to. The only skill involved in the passing game is picking the right receiver on a given play. Other than that, the outcome is completely out of your control...on offense and defense. That's why the game is so damn boring.

[jonesha2000]

My assessment on this months ago is the QB throws to the DB on this game. i have seen it so many times. That is why they cut before receivers. The DB has a better chance of catching the ball than the receiver if both are close in the area. The DB's can strafe and jump and they just seem to have a better beat on the ball. I was using Dallas last week and my friend was using Philly. On first down I knew he would think I was going to run and I know he likes to use Engage 8 on first down. Instead I called a slant route and called the right protection. I was under no pressure whatsoever...Williams had already crossed passed sheldon brown because brown was playing deep thirds. I fire the pass to Williams and instead it goes 5 yards behind him and directly to sheldon brown. Of course I lost my mind and even my buddy that I was playing was like "wtf"...also sheldon should not be able to run with some of the faster receivers in the league in one on one coverage and instead of the QB throwing to the outside shoulder on a go, it's always to the inside where a play can be made. That was why I went about 3 months without playing Madden. My buddy likes to drop back in zones because of the supernatural ability of the DB. I call plays that would skin his defense like catfish if the trajectory on the ball was right and if the QB actually threw the ball to the WR correctly...but the ball ends up floating and waiting for the DB to recover or the QB just throws it directly to the DB.

[CreatineKasey]

I've never seen a game really nail DB AI, as others have mentioned. All games in the past have had shortcomings that were noticeable. Madden's DB's often played robotic and too deep. 2k's DB's played like Oz's "Straw Man" (without a brain) taking excessive chances at the football. I've seen games in 2k where it was solely decided on DB's just taking bad angles at a ball repeatedly. Not to mention the "focus bug" where the game decides after a big play to focus a player and really mess up your DB AI until you notice it.

I personally cut EA some slack in this department because it is such a difficult thing to pull off, seemingly. To factor in previous routes, the route being run, ratings, and mixed results into each pass play for each pass defender sounds like an enormous task to take on. I hope they get to it (obviously) but I don't expect miracles in that department anytime soon.

Madden's DB's play D based on X's and O's, not based on what you see on the screen, so it can be misleading. That's where you see people write about "I saw a guy open and the WARP got mehhh!" Chances are, they threw a pass into a coverage that generally fails in football theory, and despite the game giving the perception that the pass could be maybe squeezed in, the X's and O's kick in and give the common result. Unfortunately that sucks some life out of the game and gives a feel of a video game and not a sport. One good thing about 2k's football is it did feel like you could have anything happen any play. Madden doesn't have that in terms of broken coverages.

I think both games are heavy on opposite ends of that spectrum. Madden makes too few mistakes and is too much "by the book" and 2k is a bit too loose with their mistakes. I prefer 2k's mistakes though, personally. Unfortunately, they're not always very contextual... meaning taht you could be playing a cover 4 on a hail mary play and your CB may still "bite" on something shorter and blow the coverage even though anyone with a brain wouldn't do so.

Locomotion should help in terms of letting us trust our eyes a bit more. If the game doesn't have a system where warping is even possible, we should be able to understand and accept more things we see on Madden's gridiron. My hope is that it's the end of the warp. One common route that was rarely open in M10 was the dig route. It's one that is very popular in real life to my knowledge. In Madden 10, the dig and streak are always covered and the underneath drag is left open. The real life idea is that the streak pulls the safeties back, and the short drag pulls the LB's up while the WR sits in the gap. That play is one of my "litmus tests" as to whether they improved their logic and locomotion. If you are a MLB and you see the TE on a short drag, chances are you'll come up to take that away in your zone, not sit back on that dig route which hasn't developed yet...

TL: DR = Locomotion may help DB AI. AI logic is really really hard to do and has never been done very well before.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by CreatineKasey

I've never seen a game really nail DB AI, as others have mentioned. All games in the past have had shortcomings that were noticeable. Madden's DB's often played robotic and too deep. 2k's DB's played like Oz's "Straw Man" (without a brain) taking excessive chances at the football. I've seen games in 2k where it was solely decided on DB's just taking bad angles at a ball repeatedly. Not to mention the "focus bug" where the game decides after a big play to focus a player and really mess up your DB AI until you notice it. I personally cut EA some slack in this department because it is such a difficult thing to pull off, seemingly. To factor in previous routes, the route being run, ratings, and mixed results into each pass play for each pass defender sounds like an enormous task to take on. I hope they get to it (obviously) but I don't expect miracles in that department anytime soon. Madden's DB's play D based on X's and O's, not based on what you see on the screen, so it can be misleading. That's where you see people write about "I saw a guy open and the WARP got mehhh!" Chances are, they threw a pass into a coverage that generally fails in football theory, and despite the game giving the perception that the pass could be maybe squeezed in, the X's and O's kick in and give the common result. Unfortunately that sucks some life out of the game and gives a feel of a video game and not a sport. One good thing about 2k's football is it did feel like you could have anything happen any play. Madden doesn't have that in terms of broken coverages. I think both games are heavy on opposite ends of that spectrum. Madden makes too few mistakes and is too much "by the book" and 2k is a bit too loose with their mistakes. I prefer 2k's mistakes though, personally. Unfortunately, they're not always very contextual... meaning taht you could be playing a cover 4 on a hail mary play and your CB may still "bite" on something shorter and blow the coverage even though anyone with a brain wouldn't do so. Locomotion should help in terms of letting us trust our eyes a bit more. If the game doesn't have a system where warping is even possible, we should be able to understand and accept more things we see on Madden's gridiron. My hope is that it's the end of the warp. One common route that was rarely open in M10 was the dig route. It's one that is very popular in real life to my knowledge. In Madden 10, the dig and streak are always covered and the underneath drag is left open. The real life idea is that the streak pulls the safeties back, and the short drag pulls the LB's up while the WR sits in the gap. That play is one of my "litmus tests" as to whether they improved their logic and locomotion. If you are a MLB and you see the TE on a short drag, chances are you'll come up to take that away in your zone, not sit back on that dig route which hasn't developed yet... TL: DR = Locomotion may help DB AI. AI logic is really really hard to do and has never been done very well before.

Good post, and you're right, nobody's done DB AI well. 2k5 looked nice, but it was broken in a million little ways. Madden has always been robotic, but more reliable.

It'll be interesting to see where they go with it next year. I imagine it'll come up as a priority in the next couple (I'm *guessing* we're probably looking at run pursuit and pass blocking next year, hopefully a coverage overhaul can be slipped in there as well).

[jonesha2000]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Good post, and you're right, nobody's done DB AI well. 2k5 looked nice, but it was broken in a million little ways. Madden has always been robotic, but more reliable. It'll be interesting to see where they go with it next year. I imagine it'll come up as a priority in the next couple (I'm *guessing* we're probably looking at run pursuit and pass blocking next year, hopefully a coverage overhaul can be slipped in there as well).

They could probably mask some of the problems with better ball trajectory and better placement. I think that's a lot of the problem as well.

[CPT]

while not a "fix" - I would be more pleased if EA would have the corner acknowledge the man he is 'covering'.....maybe just least back-pedal until it is time to turn his hips - and turn his hips.....not his entire body and just run "magically" amok in the same pattern as the wideout that he is not even looking at......can we at least have the corner turn his head in an effort to 'look' at his man....or peek into the backfield (while running the WR route)? At least that would look better....We would all still complain about it but it would look better on-screen.

If this is something that they choose not to fix, can they at least make it more aesthetically pleasing? If they truly love football - this must bother them.