What is Consecutive Tackling?

[monkeybutlerz]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

But people do take what he says as gospel. They do. He has 'fans' that cling to every word he says and they'll argue you up and down to prove his point. As far as lying, maybe it's more of a personal issue, but I've witnessed him tell lies. Or rather, I've seen him fabricate the truth to elevate himself and his own rep. When community day went down last year, he was one of the vocal ones in saying why all of us collectively shouldn't have been invited. He then inferred that we were all down there kissing tails and not trying to improve the game. Now honestly, I'm not really concerned about Apex nor do I wake up every day with this on my mind. But you said that he doesn't tell lies and I just wanted to present a caveat to that... Yes, you have to name the issues something. We just have different thoughts on that apparently. When I see people running with his coin-phrases, I most times think of the person as an Apex-follower. Doesn't mean I'm right nor justified in my thinking. But it's my thinking...shallow as it may seem. Here's a scenario of what I'm referring to: 1. Apex drops a video blog detailing a perceived issue with the game and names it "Horse Catching" (fake example). "EA, stop the HORSE CATCHING! Truth Chasers...I'm out". 2. Random OSer sees the video and within minutes creates this thread: "EA ENOUGH OF THE HORSE CATCHING". Inside the thread, it says "Fix this crap! Watch the video!" That to me, is when the gamer appears to be a follower and taking Apex's words as the gospel truth. We can agree to disagree though .

In terms of the internet, I try not to worry so much about who's saying what, but what's being said. In this particular case, "consecutive tackling", or whatever people want to call what is being described by the OP, is something that is needed for this franchise to progress IMO, no matter the origin of the phrase.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

But people do take what he says as gospel. They do. He has 'fans' that cling to every word he says and they'll argue you up and down to prove his point. As far as lying, maybe it's more of a personal issue, but I've witnessed him tell lies. Or rather, I've seen him fabricate the truth to elevate himself and his own rep. When community day went down last year, he was one of the vocal ones in saying why all of us collectively shouldn't have been invited. He then inferred that we were all down there kissing tails and not trying to improve the game. Now honestly, I'm not really concerned about Apex nor do I wake up every day with this on my mind. But you said that he doesn't tell lies and I just wanted to present a caveat to that... Yes, you have to name the issues something. We just have different thoughts on that apparently. When I see people running with his coin-phrases, I most times think of the person as an Apex-follower. Doesn't mean I'm right nor justified in my thinking. But it's my thinking...shallow as it may seem. Here's a scenario of what I'm referring to: 1. Apex drops a video blog detailing a perceived issue with the game and names it "Horse Catching" (fake example). "EA, stop the HORSE CATCHING! Truth Chasers...I'm out". 2. Random OSer sees the video and within minutes creates this thread: "EA ENOUGH OF THE HORSE CATCHING". Inside the thread, it says "Fix this crap! Watch the video!" That to me, is when the gamer appears to be a follower and taking Apex's words as the gospel truth. We can agree to disagree though .

I only started posting regularly here after EA started their blogs/interaction last year, so I don't know the history of your posting prior to the EA Community days, but I've seen you use this attack against me in the past as well, as a ways to diminish my view point. It definitely makes this poster wonder exactly how much your view point has changed since your visits to EA, and how much the experience, and their influence has altered your views on others take on the game.

I'm no Apex fan, mainly because his videos are way too long, with too much talking and too little content, but most of what I have seen of them are fairly straight forward breakdowns of what's wrong with the game or what needs to be fixed. Granted, I have only watched probably 3 or 4 vids. On the other hand, I haven't seen him point anything out that we haven't discussed to one extent or another in his videos either, he's simply taken the time (lots of it) to videoize his view, rather than textualize it like we have so many times on the OS forums. Anyhow, your whole thing with people having fans is, well, just weird and a peculiar view. People share ideas, have shared visions, and think along the same lines, but in no way does that make them fans.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I don't agree with Apex all the time, but on the issue of 'consecutive hit tackles,' I do. The game needs to have true physics with regard to initial impacts, secondary impacts, and tertiary impacts... Typically Madden handles the initial impact alright... Not spectacular, but well enough for the game to be playable. Sometimes a secondary impact is handled well, but we see just as many where it's not when players slip off. Tertiary impact is where there has been little progress...

The only time I see a secondary impact have any effect is if the primary tackler has released the player. As far as I recall (granted, it's been months now since I last played), there are no secondary impacts in Madden on any level.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Going foreward, we will expect these types of changes to Madden because lesser played football titles had success incorporating a better physics model than EA has.

Agreed. You'd think the leader in sales would at least match up feature wise (if not quality wise) from a gameplay perspective against some of those games with smaller dev budgets, sales, and fan bases.

They really need to take NFL Fever's approach. Add more pivot points to their player models, around the shoulder pad area, and upper body, and at the very least add a secondary impact tackle, which should be extremely easy to add.

They also need to add 'clearly logic' (w00t!, new term, bookmark it rgiles!), so players don't mass tackle / migrate to the point of the ball. One thing that has constantly ruined the immersion of the gameplay in Madden/NCAA is the group swarm to the point of the ball with all 22 players basically falling into a huge pile at the end of the game. I don't see that in the other games, whether the heavier set players typically stay back, and players too far out of the play tend to run slower, not really trying to get to the player, etc. In EA Sports games, all players are 100% all of the time until the whistle is blown. Probably the way the coaches want them to play, but not the reality of what takes place on the field.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I'll never take anything away from the 2K football nor will I disparage it in any way... It is a great series. I can and have enjoyed WATCHING the interactions of players on 2K in spite of the fact that I have no interest in playing it. No doubt, 2K is and has always been a beautiful game. One that I can appreciate solely on the basis of it's aesthetics... But when it comes to PLAYING the game, nothing has ever touched the intuitive and instinctive "feel" of Madden. Even though it's not as pretty, Madden has plenty of merit as a FUN GAME even though it has many areas where it can improve.

Yet you do disparage it when you say it's not worth playing, and there's no way you can be any source of record for how games feel when you have played one game, and one game only, namely Madden. I've played every single football game now (had missed NFL Fever, but played it recently) even Black College Football: The XPerience. When it comes to 'feel', they are all different. I find it ironic you talk about the feel of Madden when they haven't had locomotion right, or remotely right since 2006 or before, with games in the following years turning into ridiculous speed-fests.

If I had to break the games down, I'd give APF2K8 the best passing / receiver feel, Madden/APF2K8 shared coverage (each has strengths/weaknesses) feel, BackBreaker best tackling in real time & NFL Fever '04 best canned tackling feel, NFL 2K5 best broadcast presentation for overall ambiance feel. I could continue breaking it down, but I don't want to turn this into a game debate thread and take it off topic. But what I do want to point out is that when it comes to the feel of a game, what is most intuitive and what plays out most realistically from a real football gameplay perspective is not confined to any one single game, and even if we tried to define the DNA set of what makes a game feel most realistic, we'd quickly find that Madden would be at the shallow end of the gene pool.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by boooey

this has nothing to do with Apex, really. Why are you letting your obvious hatred for Apex cloud your judgment about an obvious and serious flaw in this game? I know you are one of the more "respected" members here when it comes to Madden, but come on bro..

If you re-read what I said, I said that there could be merit to what he's saying. I personally haven't watched the video.

And to say that I have hatred for anyone is way off-base. So in that sense, my judgement is not clouded. I just CHOOSE not to indulge in Apex's videos. It's not just Apex's videos that I don't watch if you want to go that route -- I don't watch Moody's, Versuz, or anyone else for that matter either.

An "obvious and serious flaw" in the game? Pardon my ignorance, but I didn't see 'consecutive tackling' or 'improved gang tackling' for that matter on many wishlists the past 2 years. But now that a video has been crafted detailing it, now it's issue #1?

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

Rgiles, maybe you can help clear up my beefe with Community Day. I have no problem with the gamers that go to the event and honestly believe you guys want a better Madden. However, what is the actual point of it? I dont mean the ideology of it but the actual point to it. Seems like you guys go there to give EA your suggestions for improving Madden but they have a differrent motive, for the most part, IMO. They seem to mainly want to find out what you guys think of what they did or are planning on doing. From the posts I have read from CD guys, EA spends alot of time making excuses, in some cases and valid points sometimes, about why they can't or haven't done things you guys repeatedly suggest. It all just seems so disconnected to me, like some kind of reverse psychology.

If you ask the CD guys, we'll all may have varying opinions on what CD is for. You suggested that it was a way to market to the consumer. I can assure you that it's not. What information comes out of CD that can be marketed? Relatively none. You get some of our quick impressions but nothing too detailed (aside from TheWatcher's presentation mega-post this year).

May sound like an oxymoron but the point of CD IMO is to improve the game. I mean you have to work around the parameters of what has already been implemented but our input does count. I think what gets aired out quite a bit is the stuff that maybe they can't implement...the stuff they have addressed as a result of our feedback doesn't get broadcasted as much. And perhaps that's why some people feel it's worthless. I'll use a small example: I don't have NCAA 11 yet but I've read people say that it has little to no stat banners. In a sports game, having to press pause to get stats is bothersome. M11 was similar at CD and I provided that feedback to them. While the stat banner implementation could probably be better, all of the recent Madden videos suggest they took this feedback and got more frequent banners in there. That helps the presentation factor immensely.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

I only started posting regularly here after EA started their blogs/interaction last year, so I don't know the history of your posting prior to the EA Community days, but I've seen you use this attack against me in the past as well, as a ways to diminish my view point. It definitely makes this poster wonder exactly how much your view point has changed since your visits to EA, and how much the experience, and their influence has altered your views on others take on the game.

I'm not going to spend too much time here as I do not want to further derail this thread. But I've learned this sort of thinking from others comes with the territory. When there were M08-09 community days, I felt compelled to question the motives of the then CD reps (Pastapadre, some other guy named Russell, ...). And now having been the last 2 years, I see that I'm questioned in the same manner and I'm content with that. I know what my motives are.

[RaiderKtulu]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

An "obvious and serious flaw" in the game? Pardon my ignorance, but I didn't see 'consecutive tackling' or 'improved gang tackling' for that matter on many wishlists the past 2 years. But now that a video has been crafted detailing it, now it's issue #1?

That's because it's so obvious it shouldn't need to be on a wishlist.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by RaiderKtulu

That's because it's so obvious it shouldn't need to be on a wishlist.

Consecutive hit tackling has been around in "other" games for a long time. It's embarrassing that it's not in Madden. NFL Fever's last game was 2004 and it was in that game. Unfortunately, there are many folks who are not very open minded when it comes to football games. They never bothered to try the other NFL games when they were available because they were so attached to Madden. Those folks really missed out, because a lot of those games were much much better as far as on the field football.

Everyone knows we all started out playing Madden. I started playing it in 1989... However, a lot of the other developers surpassed EA. With success comes complacency, and EA Tiburon is the poster child for it. 6th iteration on the latest and greatest hardware and we are asking for multi hit tackles. This sums up my problem with EA and Madden. I have to continually ask/hope for basic things that were already done well in previous games on older hardware.