Combine Number/Rating Analysis

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by rooney8

DCEEB you seem to rate players physical attributes purely by how the numbers they put up. Problem with that is not every players speed translates to the field. Taylor Mays showed he has great straight line speed but I don't think that shows in his play. I remember a couple of years ago one of the devs answering complaints that T.O's catch and speed rating was too high. T.O lead the league in drops and wasn't really a speedster and the dev said if we had T.O's catching and speed where it should be he wouldn't be any good and at the time he was one of the best around so they had to inflate those attributes.

There are only 5 of the 52 attributes that are determined by the hard data from the combines and pro days. They are SPD, STR, AGI, ACC, and JMP. That is 5 of 53 ratings! The combines are what the scouts use...so why not us? It is true that not every player's talents translate...but why is that? Running those times in shorts shows the POTENTIAL for those attributes. Players more than often do not display them for other reasons besides not having the ability to do so. It could be because they are out of position due to lack of recognition skills. It could be because they can't break tackles. It could be because they can't catch the ball! The simple fact is running those drills is the ONLY way we have to standardize everyone. One player isn't running 40 yards and the other 50 yards...they are the same. We have 48 other ratings to determine that other stuff like ELU, BCV, CIT, etc...

As for Taylor Mays...you are dead wrong on his lack of speed. Taylor Mays was notoriously a FREAK at USC. Read a scouting report or two. In fact I will even provide you with one per NFLdraftscout.com:

"Read & React: Good key-and-diagnose skills. Aggressive in run support, but disciplined and rarely out of position. Understands his role as the last line of defense and generally takes good angles to minimize big gains by opponents, but struggled some as a senior in this area. Mistakes typically occur when he overruns the play and doesn't account for the runner's cutback agility.

Man Coverage: Faster in a straight line than he is quick in a short area. Struggles laterally and loses a step in his transition due to tight hips. Rare recovery speed. Is a rangy defender and can blanket most deep receivers.

Zone Coverage: Controlled aggression in coverage makes him well suited for a zone scheme. Sees the action and reacts quickly. Loses a step in transition, but accelerates smoothly. Good change-of-direction skills. Reliable open-field tackler. Intimidating hitter over the middle.

Closing/Recovery: Rare straight-line speed for a man his size. Reads the action quickly and has great burst to close. Times his leaps well and uses his long arms to bat away passes. Would rather go for the big hit than compete for the ball. Has just five career interceptions -- three as a freshman -- despite 49 career starts.

Run Support: Has played deep in a zone scheme in the past, but flashes outstanding ability in run support. Good key-and-diagnose skills. Can elude blocks, but is willing to take them on and can discard due to his upper-body strength and long arms. Big hitter who runs downhill toward the line of scrimmage.

Tackling: Reliable open-field tackler. Breaks down well to make the secure stop. Explosive hitter who loves to intimidate opponents. Lowers his shoulder into the ballcarrier and can separate the football from the man. Leads with his shoulder on big hits, failing to wrap up securely.

Intangibles: Physically imposing athlete with good overall musculature. Freakish combination of size and straight-line speed. Carroll has publicly characterized Mays as USC's fastest player; has reportedly timed in the 4.2s at 230 pounds. Good bloodlines. Father, Stafford Mays, was a defensive lineman in the NFL (St. Louis Cardinals, Minnesota Vikings) from 1980-1988."

His physical attributes were never in question. Watch this vid of him running down Jahvid Best for a loss...laterally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26rLxHZpiKQ

As for Terrell Owens and inflating attributes, that is exactly what we are trying to fight. A poor receiver with marginal catching abilities should have that reflected in the game. Why do you think TO is without a job right now? Too many drops! He isn't that fast (and never really was...only ran a 4.46 in his prime...not a 4.3 or anything) and it should be reflected in the game. If you want to make him good, don't overrate him...rate him as he IS. Make his route running better or his elusiveness. Sometimes I think people forget why we even have those other 48 ratings because EA doesn't even know how to use them!

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by rooney8

DCEEB you seem to rate players physical attributes purely by how the numbers they put up. Problem with that is not every players speed translates to the field. Taylor Mays showed he has great straight line speed but I don't think that shows in his play. I remember a couple of years ago one of the devs answering complaints that T.O's catch and speed rating was too high. T.O lead the league in drops and wasn't really a speedster and the dev said if we had T.O's catching and speed where it should be he wouldn't be any good and at the time he was one of the best around so they had to inflate those attributes.

I dont think thar matters with general skill sets like speed, jump, strength etc., Rooney. Devin Hester is fast, period, how well he plays on the field has nothing to do with how fast he can run. How he uses that speed to run routes, releases off the line and make catches can effect his specific position skill set ratings but not his actual speed.

Also, how those general skill sets translate over to the actual football field with pads and other gear shouldnt affect those numbers. Everybody in the NFL takes these general skill set tests off the field and without game time equipment. Likewise, everybody has the same equipment on the same football field when utilizing these general skill sets on gameday. It's how each players uses these general skill sets on gameday that allows others to speculatively measure their specific position skill set ratings based on stats and consistency.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

Alright, I defintely prefer your method over the current one. However, I was thinking of something slightly different to translate 40 times into SPD ratings. I think SPD should be rated in Madden on a 0-100 range. I think the 40 time range should be something like 5.90(0 SPD)-4.10(100 SPD). This would allow SPD to be set based on 40 times with 0.02 sec seperating players with 1 ratings point. For example, using this scale, players with a 4.20 or 4.21 40 time would be rated 95 SPD and players with 4.22 or 4.23 40 times would be 94 SPD. This would allow for a slight difference in fast and faster players while still making a nice difference in 4.2-4.5 players, IMO. Acceleration would further differentiate layers and add even more individual ratings depth. Now I know you are saying, "Hey, this scale doesnt account for Mike McQuerys' 6.16 40 time!", I realize that. I was just using 0.02 sec scale to demonstrate my point for how I think 40 times should translate to Madden SPD ratings, using a simple mathmatical number like 2. I think the ideal seperation for this scale would be 0.025, if possible or just use 0.03 if you have to round up. Using these numbers and maybe setting 100 SPD to be a 4.00 40 time instead of 4.10, would give a nice balance to SPD ratings, IMO. Also, you wouldnt have to go back and adjust it later in the event of slightly faster or slower, record breaking combine 40 times.

I see what you are saying but here is the problem...the scale doesn't go from 0 to 100...it goes from 99 to 12. You can't edit a player less than 12. So now you have a weird set of intervals. Even if I set 4.20 at 100 and 6.20 at 12 the equal intervals would still be .0227. Making it linear doesn't always give you great numbers either. Look at the variation in the cone drill. The record is 6.27 and the average is 7.30 with some in the low 9s on the other end. You would have to use a parabolic equation to get them all to fit.

What setting 100 at 4.10 will do is make everyone nearly the same speed, however. You just got rid of 5 rating points that could be used to vary the speed of a player. Don't we want MORE variation here, not less? If you did a linear calculation from 4.00 to 6.20 to incorporate everyone, you would have 2 players with a 90 speed out of 17000. That's not good either.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I see what you are saying but here is the problem...the scale doesn't go from 0 to 100...it goes from 99 to 12. You can't edit a player less than 12. So now you have a weird set of intervals. Even if I set 4.20 at 100 and 6.20 at 12 the equal intervals would still be .0227. Making it linear doesn't always give you great numbers either. Look at the variation in the cone drill. The record is 6.27 and the average is 7.30 with some in the low 9s on the other end. You would have to use a parabolic equation to get them all to fit.

I didnt think about that part so I see the problem there.

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

What setting 100 at 4.10 will do is make everyone nearly the same speed, however. You just got rid of 5 rating points that could be used to vary the speed of a player. Don't we want MORE variation here, not less? If you did a linear calculation from 4.00 to 6.20 to incorporate everyone, you would have 2 players with a 90 speed out of 17000. That's not good either.

Keep in mind, when I said set it at 4.10 I was thinking the ratings could be set from 0-100. I understand now that is not the case but do not really understand how that translate into less variation in your opinion. In the SPD rating, I only want variation where it should be, I mostly want realism. If 2 players have 40 times of 4.21 and 4.23, I dont mind these players having similar SPD. Likewise if 1000 players have 4.40-4.43 40 times, I dont mind them being similar either. However, I dont want to see 2 players with 4.30-4.33 40 times and one with 92 SPD and the other at 80 SPD because its a LB and a WR.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

I didnt think about that part so I see the problem there. Keep in mind, when I said set it at 4.10 I was thinking the ratings could be set from 0-100. I understand now that is not the case but do not really understand how that translate into less variation in your opinion. In the SPD rating, I only want variation where it should be, I mostly want realism. If 2 players have 40 times of 4.21 and 4.23, I dont mind these players having similar SPD. Likewise if 1000 players have 4.40-4.43 40 times, I dont mind them being similar either. However, I dont want to see 2 players with 4.30-4.33 40 times and one with 92 SPD and the other at 80 SPD because its a LB and a WR.

The speed discrepencies for guys who run similar times will not be in my ratings. I HATE that stuff too. That is why I am making them universal.

[seriousluboy83]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

The speed discrepencies for guys who run similar times will not be in my ratings. I HATE that stuff too. That is why I am making them universal.

universal speed is the best way to go...LT runs a 4.78 DE runs a 4.78 same speed rating...LT has a slower 10 yard time tho...he gets a slower acceleration

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by seriousluboy83

universal speed is the best way to go...LT runs a 4.78 DE runs a 4.78 same speed rating...LT has a slower 10 yard time tho...he gets a slower acceleration

Wonderful! So which method do you guys think will work best or would you like incorporated?

[seriousluboy83]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Wonderful! So which method do you guys think will work best or would you like incorporated?

i prefer the 1st method...using this will make elite player attributes stand out...and like in my 1st post if two players have the same 40 time they get the same speed rating...but if they have different 10 yard times they get different accelerations

Klye Williams

40yd time:4.40 SPD Rating:89
10yd time:1.51 ACC Rating:87

Emmanuel Sanders

40yd time:4.40 SPD Rating:89
10yd time:1.49 ACC Rating:89

Andre Roberts

40yd time:4.40 SPD Rating:89
10yd time:1.52 ACC Rating:86

Taylor Price

40yd time:4.40 SPD Rating:89
10yd time:1.50 ACC Rating:88