Are we heading towards a physics-based, data-driven football simulation game?

[Exonerated]

sim is overrated.

FIFA 10 is arcadey as crap but its so fun to play.

Its unrealistic as hell (mainly due to speed of play, ie. reducing 90 mins into 12), but its very fun.

[REDRZA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

sim is overrated. FIFA 10 is arcadey as crap but its so fun to play. Its unrealistic as hell (mainly due to speed of play, ie. reducing 90 mins into 12), but its very fun.

Reducing 90 mins to 12 is not indicative of a game playing "arcadey". Most people dont have time to play a single game or match for 90 mins. The barometer should be the gameplay on the field. Does the game play like soccer? Or are there 12-10 shootouts? I'm not a soccer fan, and don't play FIFA, but i've never heard of it being "arcadey" in any way.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

sim is overrated. FIFA 10 is arcadey as crap but its so fun to play. Its unrealistic as hell (mainly due to speed of play, ie. reducing 90 mins into 12), but its very fun.

I disagree... it's very sim... but certain aspects of the game have to be "accelerated" in order to get realistic games.

In FIFA, it's the midfield game. Rather than a bunch of changes in possession in midfield throughout the game, the midfield game is de-emphasized. I don't consider this arcade, but a necessary sacrifice in order to make the game tolerable but realistic.

If you're going to judge it that way, only football and baseball can pack the entire game into as little time as to be truly sim.

[DaveDQ]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Now, not all of these things were done well, but if you can't see the obvious change in direction, you're blind or ignoring it on purpose. A lot of people praise NHL and FIFA and ask "why can't Madden be like that?", forgetting entirely that it took 3 years for both of those games to get to that point... once the decision was made to make them sim. M11 is the 2nd Madden since that decision was made. If you want a real test of Madden's progress, compare it to NHL 2008 and FIFA 07. Year 2 of the renovation. Look at NHL 09 and FIFA 08 to see where Madden 12 should be.

I do think that things like a slower speed, Pro-Tak and locomotion are signs that the design philosophy has changed, and I'm sure the people you mentioned have been a part of that. What I think has to happen, especially in speaking of anything physics based, is they have to truly recreate this game's software. When I say engine I mean what powers Madden 10 (the coding behind the game). The game still moves in a very twitchy and odd way, especially now with Pro-Tak. Defenders are being pulled away from the action by no known force. Even after locomotion and Pro-Tak, this game's software just can't render consecutive tackles. That's nothing against any developer past or present.

[Exonerated]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I disagree... it's very sim... but certain aspects of the game have to be "accelerated" in order to get realistic games. In FIFA, it's the midfield game. Rather than a bunch of changes in possession in midfield throughout the game, the midfield game is de-emphasized. I don't consider this arcade, but a necessary sacrifice in order to make the game tolerable but realistic. If you're going to judge it that way, only football and baseball can pack the entire game into as little time as to be truly sim.

It's arcadey because players have too much control over the ball. Dribbling is too easy. Shooting is far too accurate. Passing is too accurate. Corners and jump balls are not represented well. Goalkeeping ai is ineffective. Players dribbling faster than defenders can sprint. Defenders pushing up too far when in possession.

Don't get me wrong. I love fifa 10. I prefer the arcadey fast paced style. But its not "sim".

I make the comparison to M11 because people want it to be "sim". They don't want cpu quicksnap. They want 1000 hotroutes on offense and 1001 hot routes on defense. They want to pick from 200 plays at once. Tierred play-calling??

Sim is overrated.

A Madden that represents the game well, but is full of 'big' plays, exciting moments, and the awesome stuff will sell well.

A "sim" in the most gratuitous definition will not sell well, no matter how many hardcores insist so.

[Exonerated]

Quote: Originally Posted by REDRZA

Reducing 90 mins to 12 is not indicative of a game playing "arcadey". Most people dont have time to play a single game or match for 90 mins. The barometer should be the gameplay on the field. Does the game play like soccer? Or are there 12-10 shootouts? I'm not a soccer fan, and don't play FIFA, but i've never heard of it being "arcadey" in any way.

Scores can range from 8-6 to 1-0 to 0-0. Depends on play. But theres stuff like 30 shots a game from each side which make it unrealistic. build up play less existent and its too easy to do stuff. Its arcadey. I'm a soccer fan. But I like FIFA because you get to score a lot and take loads of shots -- unlike real life - which makes fifa so fun.

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

Sim is overrated.

Well, perhaps in your opinion. But for someone who wants sim, obviously it isn't. What's "fun" isn't predefined for every gamer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

A "sim" in the most gratuitous definition will not sell well, no matter how many hardcores insist so.

Seems to me most wanters of sim openly acknowledge mainstream popularity is the killer issue.

[Tengo Juego]

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

I make the comparison to M11 because people want it to be "sim". They don't want cpu quicksnap. They want 1000 hotroutes on offense and 1001 hot routes on defense. They want to pick from 200 plays at once. Tierred play-calling?? Sim is overrated.

And of these two items, no "sim" person is standing atop a hill yelling for these things. Sim is not overrated. Sim is overdue.