Vision Cone Discussion

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Thinking Out Loud

This is exactly what I was trying get across to you in the FOW thread. LOL What ever you say. Now, just so I make sure I understand what you are suggesting, let me try to paraphrase it. A NFL2k style passing penalty system that accounts for various poor QB mechanics and a BB-isk cam view with a head turn mechanic to see receivers along with a split screen for head to head on the same console. Is that right or correct me if I am wrong. I think this is a good idea that addresses the issues with what we have currently. However, it also introduces new issues of its' own. What view would the user have on defense, the same BB-isk view or something different? Regardless of if it's the same or a different view, the issue with split screen is that the defensive user can see exactly where the user QB is looking. The fact that both users play QB, makes it fair but unrealistic by default just like the vision cone. If it's the same view that would cause problems controlling a defender and trying to make plays. IRL a defender can multitask with their body but that would be a difficult and clunky process using a controller. Defenders would need some kind of head turn mechanic also and accounting for balance when trying to run one way while looking another way seems tricky. I guess they could account for it by slowing the defender down but that still wouldn't address the response time for performing multiple actions in game not being representative of what a player can do IRL. The overall interface of using a controller for a BB-isk view is too disorientating and ends up mechanically ruining the visual immersion. I think this view is best suited for use with something like the Xbox Kinect where the user can utilize their body instead of a controller. So "not counting" the BB-isk view, "because that isn't acceptable" for all the reason I just listed, this is just basically QB vision cone without the cone and 2k's passing mechanic penalty system. See what I did there? LOL I see what you tried to do there. If it makes you feel better to think you have taught me a lesson, I'll play along. But seriously I think implementing a passing mechanic penalty system is the shizz but until a Kintec style user interface is standard across all platforms, I don't see the BB-isk view being a viable option. Right... because there are no games currently available where control for the player and the camera are on separate analog sticks lol.

Basically every 3rd person game available, regardless of genre, has character movement on one stick and camera movement on the other.

[Thinking Out Loud]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Basically every 3rd person game available, regardless of genre, has character movement on one stick and camera movement on the other.

I placed "LOL" at the end of that stuff to try to indicate that I was just poking fun and quoted you from the FOW thread to attempt to illustrate my point about comparing elements of mechanics instead of the idea as a whole. I was not trying to teach "a lesson", just trying to clarify an earlier point. If I am coming off rude or snide, my bad because that is not my intent.

Now, as far as the 3rd person mechanic being available in various other games and genres, my point still stands. "I think this view is best suited for use with something like the Xbox Kinect where the user can utilize their body instead of a controller." The 3rd person view using the controller may work better in other game genres besides football games but I think my point applies to most, if not all 3rd person games.

The fact that other games use the mechanic proves that it does exist in those games but I never claimed it didn't. I said "I think this is a good idea that addresses the issues with what we have currently. However, it also introduces new issues of its' own." Then I proceeded to list those issues, as it relates to a football video game.

How does other games using the mechanic negate or counter that?

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Thinking Out Loud

I placed "LOL" at the end of that stuff to try to indicate that I was just poking fun and quoted you from the FOW thread to attempt to illustrate my point about comparing elements of mechanics instead of the idea as a whole. I was not trying to teach "a lesson", just trying to clarify an earlier point. If I am coming off rude or snide, my bad because that is not my intent. Now, as far as the 3rd person mechanic being available in various other games and genres, my point still stands. "I think this view is best suited for use with something like the Xbox Kinect where the user can utilize their body instead of a controller." The 3rd person view using the controller may work better in other game genres besides football games but I think my point applies to most, if not all 3rd person games. The fact that other games use the mechanic proves that it does exist in those games but I never claimed it didn't. I said "I think this is a good idea that addresses the issues with what we have currently. However, it also introduces new issues of its' own." Then I proceeded to list those issues, as it relates to a football video game. How does other games using the mechanic negate or counter that?

"IRL a defender can multitask with their body but that would be a difficult and clunky process using a controller. Defenders would need some kind of head turn mechanic also and accounting for balance when trying to run one way while looking another way seems tricky. I guess they could account for it by slowing the defender down but that still wouldn't address the response time for performing multiple actions in game not being representative of what a player can do IRL.

The overall interface of using a controller for a BB-isk view is too disorientating and ends up mechanically ruining the visual immersion. I think this view is best suited for use with something like the Xbox Kinect where the user can utilize their body instead of a controller."

My comment was directed towards this part of your post. You are basically saying that a controller is not a feasible control method for representing body movement that is separate from head movement. I brought up other genres because there are countless 3rd person games that do just that with a controller.

Is Uncharted disorienting? Is it tricky to run one way and look another in Splinter Cell? Is playing Batman Arkham Asylum a clunky process? I don't know about you, but I would answer no to each of those.

Even forgetting other genres, there IS a Football game that does this already as well.

I'm not trying to be snide either. I'm just trying to illustrate something. There is always the sense that Football is somehow speacial on this site. I get it. This is a sports site, so people wouldn't be here if they didn't think their fav sport was special. Football is my fav sport too, but I also know that it may have a special place in my heart, but that doesn't mean that things that work in other games that aren't Football, can't work in it. I don't know if this is your thinking. I don't know if you're one of the people I discribed. All I know is that the comments you made suggested that body movement separate from head turning, ie camera control, doesn't work, or doesn't work very well, with a controller. I just didn't understand how you could make those statements.

The control scheme in BB works. People may not like it, but it does in fact work. It's just an experience that is outside most people's "let me see everything on the field at once" box. This is by design.

There are many things in BB that don't work very well. The camera, isn't one of them.

[Pared]

Quote: Originally Posted by da ThRONe

This and we have tendency now so some DB's should bite on play fake or follow the QB eyes. While we may not all agree with the vision cone(I'm against the cone). I think we all agree a QB should have to look at his target before throwing an accurate pass.

Exactly.

It's very important when you incorporate fakes into a game.

In fact - Madden would be the first game to incorporate something like this if I'm not mistaken. Think of the other sports where players don't "look" where they are going towards at a certain time - basketball and passing; baseball and throwing, hockey and passing.

Some of 2k's games have done this extremely well by extending animations to simulate vision. If Madden implemented this on both sides of the ball, it would make the passing game feel more fluid and rewarding.

[Thinking Out Loud]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

"IRL a defender can multitask with their body but that would be a difficult and clunky process using a controller. Defenders would need some kind of head turn mechanic also and accounting for balance when trying to run one way while looking another way seems tricky. I guess they could account for it by slowing the defender down but that still wouldn't address the response time for performing multiple actions in game not being representative of what a player can do IRL. The overall interface of using a controller for a BB-isk view is too disorientating and ends up mechanically ruining the visual immersion. I think this view is best suited for use with something like the Xbox Kinect where the user can utilize their body instead of a controller." My comment was directed towards this part of your post. You are basically saying that a controller is not a feasible control method for representing body movement that is separate from head movement. I brought up other genres because there are countless 3rd person games that do just that with a controller. Is Uncharted disorienting? Is it tricky to run one way and look another in Splinter Cell? Is playing Batman Arkham Asylum a clunky process? I don't know about you, but I would answer no to each of those. Even forgetting other genres, there IS a Football game that does this already as well. I'm not trying to be snide either. I'm just trying to illustrate something. There is always the sense that Football is somehow speacial on this site. I get it. This is a sports site, so people wouldn't be here if they didn't think their fav sport was special. Football is my fav sport too, but I also know that it may have a special place in my heart, but that doesn't mean that things that work in other games that aren't Football, can't work in it. I don't know if this is your thinking. I don't know if you're one of the people I discribed. All I know is that the comments you made suggested that body movement separate from head turning, ie camera control, doesn't work, or doesn't work very well, with a controller. I just didn't understand how you could make those statements. The control scheme in BB works. People may not like it, but it does in fact work. It's just an experience that is outside most people's "let me see everything on the field at once" box. This is by design. There are many things in BB that don't work very well. The camera, isn't one of them.

Well I am going to stick with talking about this view and mechanic as it relates to football games because that what we are discussing. If by feasible and work you mean a probable view functioning the way it is programmed, then I agree and never said the view was improbable in a football video game or non-operational. However, if by feasible and work you mean conveniently being able to perform football actions in the game with this view, then I disagree.

You just quoted some of the issues I listed that come along with using this view and mechanic in a football video game, as it was described. Not once have you given a reason for why any one of my listed issues are not valid. A feature being applied and operational in a game, does not equate to it having no issues. Likewise, saying this view and mechanic have issues does not equate to saying it is not probable or will not operate in a video game. QB Vision was in two editions of Madden and was a feasible feature that worked, addressed some issues with passing in previous Maddens but had other issues.

The same thing with the view and head turn mechanic you are suggesting. It addresses some issues but causes others, which I listed. Now if you think what you have suggested is perfect or as close to perfect that can be achieved in football video games then you are entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, if you want to dispute the actual issues with the view and mechanic, I have stated, then I would be interested in that.

[lofeazy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

The control scheme in BB works. People may not like it, but it does in fact work. It's just an experience that is outside most people's "let me see everything on the field at once" box. This is by design. There are many things in BB that don't work very well. The camera, isn't one of them.

The camera and controls where the few things they got right.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Thinking Out Loud

Well I am going to stick with talking about this view and mechanic as it relates to football games because that what we are discussing. If by feasible and work you mean a probable view functioning the way it is programmed, then I agree and never said the view was improbable in a football video game or non-operational. However, if by feasible and work you mean conveniently being able to perform football actions in the game with this view, then I disagree. You just quoted some of the issues I listed that come along with using this view and mechanic in a football video game, as it was described. Not once have you given a reason for why any one of my listed issues are not valid. A feature being applied and operational in a game, does not equate to it having no issues. Likewise, saying this view and mechanic have issues does not equate to saying it is not probable or will not operate in a video game. QB Vision was in two editions of Madden and was a feasible feature that worked, addressed some issues with passing in previous Maddens but had other issues. The same thing with the view and head turn mechanic you are suggesting. It addresses some issues but causes others, which I listed. Now if you think what you have suggested is perfect or as close to perfect that can be achieved in football video games then you are entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, if you want to dispute the actual issues with the view and mechanic, I have stated, then I would be interested in that.

I don't understand the question. You said that a controller is not a good means of controlling a view that has separate body and camera movement. There are countless games that do just that with a controller. I named them.

When you play any other 3rd person game where you can control the camera with the RS, do you have trouble playing it? Did you find yourself thinking that this is not the way that this game should be controlled? Were you pining for the day that motion control was created? If the answer is no to all of those questions, then the only reasonable conclusion that could be drawn is that, for what ever reason, you think that it works in every 3rd person game you've played, but would not work in a Football game. If that's the case, I don't know that there is anything left to discuss. You just don't like it, and nothing I say will be able to "dispute the actual issues", because the actual issue is that you prefer not to play that way. That's fine.

The fact of the matter is that there are only a few control methods to play games. There are not different control methods to play every game. There aren't even different control methods for every genre. They all share a few control methods.

Would it be more difficult to play the game the way I outlined, which is basically like BB? Yes, but that's sort of the point. Football isn't easy and having a skycam makes it easy. A defender can't chase a receiver and see his man, plus every other receiver on the field, plus the QB, plus the ball in the air. I like the BB system where looking in the backfield can be risk reward. See the QB, lose your man. I like that I have to actually look at receivers to know if they are open and not see every single route develop at the same time and just tap a button when it's time to make the donuts. That's my preference. I can't make it yours, and I wouldn't try to.

I hate skycam. It is the epitome of arcadey (slight exaggeration lol) and I crave much more realism in that area. I'm not saying that the BB control method is perfect, but it addresses the areas that I feel, most importantly need be addressed. I am more than willing to sacrifice some ease of use to achieve that end. Especially when it's something that I've played with, in 1000's of other games, and had no problem.

If that's just me, I'm ok with that.