What should attributes be based off of?

[cheapargentina]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Not necessarily. This year alone we had pro day data for some 2000 players! That's unreal! I have all the hard data, but I do not want this to be lop-sided in favor of guys just because they are drafted higher than others. In actuality, it shouldn't make a difference. Perhaps you can raise some ideas for solutions instead of arguing the point?

i was arguing really? i didnt notice this please show me where it is that i said anything that even looks negative.
i tried to give u an idea on how to rate rookies and apparently u got mad because i said some info is better than no info and with it u could at least get the more popular rookies rated accordingly which in my mind is better than having them all rated poorly. didnt mean to start an argument just because u didnt like the idea doesnt mean u have to get mad

tried to give u a hand but apparently ur more interested in arguing then listening to ideas

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

OK, once again...I am NOT looking for a critique of the game! I am simply asking for how you would base certain attributes. What should they be based on? Is a Stiff Arm rating a function of speed? Is the juke move a function of agility? Is your blockshedding related to how strong you are? How about the finese move? I want to hear ideas on what data you would use to try and measure some of these attributes that are a bit less easy to measure. I have scouting data for a lot of these things, like accuracy at differnt throwing levels for QBs, arm strength, vision, etc...but some I do NOT have and they need to be filled in. SO that being said, as per the original question posed in this topic, what do you think corresponds to certain attributes? Does anyone have any idea or are we just going to continue to bash EA here?

are we supposed to do ur work for you? ive seen a few ideas here and ur getting mad because ppl arent doing exactly wut u ask of them they r not ur employees they r giving u a hand why not try and be more polite?

[illwill10]

i think they should hide ratings that don't apply to positions. ex pass block for cbs or for qbs
and hide potential cuz who will really keep a "D'' or "F'' player

[guaps]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I know this has been brought up before but I would like the community to give me some opinions as to what attributes should be based off of. I am attempting to create more realistic ratings for the game on my website FBGratings.com/members for the benefit of the entire Madden gaming community. In doing so I need some ideas on how to determine some attributes. I have hard combine data for just about every player since 1998 which helps, but I can't necessarily use 40 times to determine stiff arm ratings...get it? I also have a wide variety of scouting data to rely on as well, but this data does not always show particular attributes like stiff arm, trucking, etc. So what I would like to know is how should certain attribute values be calculated? Should the stiff arm rating be dependent upon strength? Should the juke move be based on one's agility and weight? Try to consider the physics behind some of these terms. Something like Hitpower being a function of FORCE x VELOCITY where FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION. Now we know the mass of many players by their weight at 1 earth gravity and we can measure how fast they accelerate from combine data. Throw in a velocity and bingo! You just found a hitpower! I am looking for ideas like this. How would you, in a perfect Madden world, want attributes to be calculated. PLEASE BE SPECIFIC if you can. Thanks again to the community and check out the site!

True, hit power is determined by physical factors, but when the current system doesn't acknowledge that, we cannot create a coherent hit power rating. A proper way to determine hit power is:

Mass x Velocity = Momentum or 'mass in motion'
Mass x Change in Momentum = Force
Force x Time = Impulse

In a collision, a player experiences a Force for a given amount of Time that results in his Mass undergoing a change in Velocity. This is not a constant, therefore reducing it to a single hit power rating just won't work!!

And what determines a stiff arm? Well, most important criteria for success using a stiff arm is timing. If you can get your arm locked before impact, then you need less strength to preform it. Strength is still crucial, but so is balance and overall body control.

Moreover, a stiff arm is also very dependent on the speed and angle at the time of the players interaction. If your running at high speed, then you'll need less strength to preform a good stiff arm, because the other guy can easily be brought out of balance. But so can the guy trying to stiff arm if he times it wrong.

Now can you measure stiff arm or hit power and assign each a rating using pro day and combine data? My short answer is no! Plain and simple.

It is not that I am bashing EA Tiburon, it is more that am I bashing the efforts to make ratings more 'correct', when the underlying mechanics that are using these ratings are flawed. Any efforts will only be visual at best.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by cheapargentina

i was arguing really? i didnt notice this please show me where it is that i said anything that even looks negative. i tried to give u an idea on how to rate rookies and apparently u got mad because i said some info is better than no info and with it u could at least get the more popular rookies rated accordingly which in my mind is better than having them all rated poorly. didnt mean to start an argument just because u didnt like the idea doesnt mean u have to get mad tried to give u a hand but apparently ur more interested in arguing then listening to ideas are we supposed to do ur work for you? ive seen a few ideas here and ur getting mad because ppl arent doing exactly wut u ask of them they r not ur employees they r giving u a hand why not try and be more polite?

The point is to stay on topic so I can get some ideas on what the community would think. The response made by Guaps is what I am looking for.

Arguing against how things are done now is not the topic. There are other threads for that...but it's not this one.

As for my work, I have an idea about all of this already that has been working out well enough. The issue is that I do NOT want to be closed minded and would rather hear some opinions about the present topic. Getting into other things aside from what a poster is asking is just bad forum etiquette.

Asking questions is not a bad idea especially when you value the opinions of others, so please take all of this with a grain of salt.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by guaps

True, hit power is determined by physical factors, but when the current system doesn't acknowledge that, we cannot create a coherent hit power rating. A proper way to determine hit power is: Mass x Velocity = Momentum or 'mass in motion' Mass x Change in Momentum = Force Force x Time = Impulse In a collision, a player experiences a Force for a given amount of Time that results in his Mass undergoing a change in Velocity. This is not a constant, therefore reducing it to a single hit power rating just won't work!! And what determines a stiff arm? Well, most important criteria for success using a stiff arm is timing. If you can get your arm locked before impact, then you need less strength to preform it. Strength is still crucial, but so is balance and overall body control. Moreover, a stiff arm is also very dependent on the speed and angle at the time of the players interaction. If your running at high speed, then you'll need less strength to preform a good stiff arm, because the other guy can easily be brought out of balance. But so can the guy trying to stiff arm if he times it wrong. Now can you measure stiff arm or hit power and assign each a rating using pro day and combine data? My short answer is no! Plain and simple. It is not that I am bashing EA Tiburon, it is more that am I bashing the efforts to make ratings more 'correct', when the underlying mechanics that are using these ratings are flawed. Any efforts will only be visual at best.

This is what I am looking for! Thank you! Now what other uses in science and physics in particular can we use to calculate other attributes? Ideas?

[cheapargentina]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

The point is to stay on topic so I can get some ideas on what the community would think. The response made by Guaps is what I am looking for. Arguing against how things are done now is not the topic. There are other threads for that...but it's not this one. As for my work, I have an idea about all of this already that has been working out well enough. The issue is that I do NOT want to be closed minded and would rather hear some opinions about the present topic. Getting into other things aside from what a poster is asking is just bad forum etiquette. Asking questions is not a bad idea especially when you value the opinions of others, so please take all of this with a grain of salt.

And I gave u my opinion as part of the community I said u cant just completly ignore technique. these ideas that involve velocity and mass to determine how hard someone hits cant be done correctly if u dont figure in the fact that the guy need to be able to position his body correctly to get the most out of their hit it wont be authentic

Take ray Lewis he's isn't the biggest or fastest and he hits like a mother f because he knw how to hold his body together and explode on the player at the perfect time

Plz realize that I'm not trying to argue anything I'm giving my opinion and the fact that I think technique needs to factor in it's not just a matter of physical ability

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by cheapargentina

And I gave u my opinion as part of the community I said u cant just completly ignore technique. these ideas that involve velocity and mass to determine how hard someone hits cant be done correctly if u dont figure in the fact that the guy need to be able to position his body correctly to get the most out of their hit it wont be authentic Take ray Lewis he's isn't the biggest or fastest and he hits like a mother f because he knw how to hold his body together and explode on the player at the perfect time Plz realize that I'm not trying to argue anything I'm giving my opinion and the fact that I think technique needs to factor in it's not just a matter of physical ability

See the thing is we already have ratings to determine the positioning of a player. That is what the AWR and PRC ratings are for. What I am wanting to know is what would you consider the true, raw, definition of a rating would be. I love the example for hit power. Now, something like catching would be a skill. But if it WASN'T, what would determine one's catching ability? How about CAR? Block-shedding? Block-shedding seems to be a strength thing to me, but it also requires good technique and hand-work. Finese moves appear to be based on one's ability to run around a blocker, meaning that agility is prominent.

Are you understanding what I am asking for here? Any more ideas?

[guaps]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

See the thing is we already have ratings to determine the positioning of a player. That is what the AWR and PRC ratings are for. What I am wanting to know is what would you consider the true, raw, definition of a rating would be. I love the example for hit power. Now, something like catching would be a skill. But if it WASN'T, what would determine one's catching ability? How about CAR? Block-shedding? Block-shedding seems to be a strength thing to me, but it also requires good technique and hand-work. Finese moves appear to be based on one's ability to run around a blocker, meaning that agility is prominent. Are you understanding what I am asking for here? Any more ideas?

Just like you need to setup the run game to preform effective play-action plays - and not have the rely on play-action and PRC ratings, most things are about setting up a certain thing to be more effective.

Take a defensive end. Basically, you have the speed rush and the bull rush. The bull rush is effective if the DE is strong, explosive and has a low center of gravity (James Harrison at 6'0" is a perfect example). The main aspect of the bull rush is gaining leverage to get the OT off balance. No matter how strong the OT is, he is gonna lose if doesn't have balance.

A speed rush on the other hand is normally about attacking the OTs outside shoulder and beat him upfield before he can set up or run the edge with the DE (Julius Peppers is a prime example of this). Here the key attribute is explosiveness/acceleration.

Now to get back to my play-action example above, a DE must be effective in the outside speed rush or bull rush before he can use effective inside counter moves (finesse moves). Otherwise he is not going to force the OT to open his hips, which will reduce his strength and balance enough for the DE to win the battles.

Again I argue that this cannot be boiled down to a single power move and finesse move rating - actually I believe those ratings would be redundant if we had proper OL/DL interactions.

As for the pass blocking you should see that slower and less athletic OTs will open their hips up too early to attempt to compensate for their lack of agility. This has nothing to do with blocking skills, but the lack of physical abilities. This is why NFL scouts LOVE tackles that have a rare combination of size, strength and athleticism like, say, Jonathan Ogden.

Final note: Arm length plays a huge factor in OL/DL interactions (especially in the pass rush), yet Madden does not have individual arm lengths for their player models (but FIFA 11 does with individual hand size too and it's a soccer game!!). One of the things that makes Mario Williams so effective in the speed rush is that he has exceptionally long arms and strength to keep the OTs away from his body.